Back to the Topic.....Combat Stress and Suicide

**50cal** · 08-12-2008, 12:40 PM

Anyway back to the topic at hand.....Combat Stress aka (PTSD) aka Fog of War aka Shell shock.....

Combat Stress kills....
Combat stress kills

-
Posted : June 09, 2008

At least 172 service members have killed themselves while serving in Iraq or Afghanistan in the past six years.
That means one out of every 26 combat-zone deaths is a suicide — almost 4 percent.
Among nonhostile deaths in the war zones, suicides make up more than 18 percent.
The problem gets worse after troops come home. The Veterans Affairs Department acknowledges vets under its care attempt suicide 1,000 times per month — and 17 of those attempts are successful.
Combat’s emotional shrapnel takes its toll on troops of every service, race, age and rank. It can strike even the most dedicated high performers, as in the case of Army 1st Sgt. Jeff McKinney, who shot himself in the midst of a patrol in Baghdad last summer.
If this many people were being killed by a new type of armor-piercing round, a task force would be formed and millions of dollars spent on countermeasures.
The same needs to be done here.
More needs to be done to combat the stigma attached to seeking mental health care and to teach troops and commanders alike to not only recognize the warning signs, but also to understand how best to respond.
Admittedly, this is particularly difficult in a combat zone, when the day’s mission cannot be delayed or rescheduled.
But unless and until troops and leaders at all levels accept the fact that the mental wounds of war are every bit as debilitating as the physical wounds, preventable tragedies like the suicide of Jeff McKinney will haunt us all.

timmy tiger · 08-12-2008, 12:55 PM

I agree with the article that something needs to be done. They need to stop cutting the funding for the VA and veterans services and, maybe, cut some of the politicians paychecks. Now that would put alot of funds out there to help alot of people and that could afford the services that are needed in the military to help it's service men and women. Just a thought, but not likely to happen.

**chazziff** · 08-12-2008, 01:09 PM

there is an outcry from the general public ... whenever the government spends any money on the military. as if ... spending money on it means more war or whatever. but this money is needed to help all those brave individuals who unselfishly decided to defend their country ..

but at the same time ... these individuals need help themselves to take that first step for actually seeking mental help. there is a stigma of being considered ... weak ... for doing so. men in particular are raised to ... be strong and dont show signs of weakness and are more often not ... shown ways of dealing wit it. we as a people need to stop attaching this stigma for seeking this type of medical help ... because it is a part of a whole well-being - mental/emotional and physical well being.

Tiki · 08-12-2008, 01:25 PM

my husband just received a survey in the mail about deployment related stress and the programs available to us. Reading it made me realize how much is available in theory but not utilizable in reality. Also, we had a recent incident on our base of a Air Force member killing his children and himself in a domestic case. He had returned from Iraq a year ago, the wife had filed restraining orders against him and filed for divorce. Yet this member continued to live in on base housing with the children he had previously threatened to kill and his unit made all the claims against him disappear because "he was a good troop". Even after this incident they continued to hail him as a war hero and cited PTSD as a possible cause. Explain to me why nothing was done in the past year to help this "good troop".

timmy tiger · 08-12-2008, 01:29 PM

Chaz, I totally agree with you there.

They do need to ask for help, most who suffer from it.

PTSD--doesn't just effect the military personal, it also effects: Policemen, Firemen, Ambulance corp personal, Rape Victims, Abuse Victims (Child or adult) and Molestation victims, and anyone who has had some form of Traumatic stress.

With most of these they do need to come forward and ask for help 'cause some can deal better then other's and you just never know which ones need help more and which ones don't.

But in the case of the Service men and women, Policemen, Firemen and Ambulance Corp personal--these are their jobs and professions and they are hired to protect and take care of the people. Therefore, in my opinion, there should be automatic services for them to get this help through their employer's and higher ups. Like maybe some kind of every 6 month evaluation or every year or something like that. More persons trained in diagnosing and caring for PTSD and things along those lines. This is just my opinion here.

timmy tiger · 08-12-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiki

my husband just received a survey in the mail about deployment related stress and the programs available to us. Reading it made me realize how much is available in theory but not utilizable in reality. Also, we had a recent incident on our base of a Air Force member killing his children and himself in a domestic case. He had returned from Iraq a year ago, the wife had filed restraining orders against him and filed for divorce. Yet this member continued to live in on base housing with the children he had previously threatened to kill and his unit made all the claims against him disappear because "he was a good troop". Even after this incident they continued to hail him as a war hero and cited PTSD as a possible cause. Explain to me why nothing was done in the past year to help this "good troop".

That is so sad Tiki, but again (IMO) they looked at him as a body who could do the work that they needed or wanted him to do and didn't think of the overall man and what was happening or going on with him.

I talked to someone at the VA many years ago about my dad's records and they gave me a little light on some things. They told me that if a person in the military had ever been given a section 8 or any other kind of bad rep (best way I can think to put it right now), that if as a civilian they went and got a diagnosis of anything to do with combat that it would be completely taken off their record as if it never had happened. They told me that this was their way of protecting their service man.

Well, protecting the service man is one thing, but his family needs to be protected too.

Tiki · 08-12-2008, 01:59 PM

TT I completely agree. We have services available to us such as Fleet and Family Support Centers where we can request things such as personal counseling, anger management and even marriage counseling. BUT every time a service member or their family member asks for such services, it reflects negatively on the service member. It can affect their eval, their orders even their personal fitness report. So most of us shy away from it. Also, you have to ask permission from your command to attend each session. So it is easier for them to just keep their mouth shut and go through their own private hell. Even service members who never have seen direct combat still suffer from immense stress during deployments and at home. Frankly they do not get the appropriate downtime. And on top of that they are expected to take classes, log training and get useless qualifications while working non stop for 12+ hours, sometimes 7 days a week and that is while not on deployment (for deployment add isolation from all family, no contact for weeks and longer workdays). Add to that trying to be with their families, please their spouses, even their parents. I wonder if there is a class of PTSD that can be caused by a non attack situation ie immense stress and pressure like that.

timmy tiger · 08-12-2008, 02:04 PM

Yep Tiki, that's why I really do think that it should be an automatic ever so often for all and that might help this situation out.

Traumatic Stress can really be caused by anything even the things that you mentioned, it's not just all physical--although those are the ones most noted 'cause many of them are documented, but the psychological ones such as you mentioned aren't usually really documented and are not noticed as PTSD, more like someone just being home sick or "Weak".

Mud_Woman · 08-12-2008, 02:07 PM

just like 'full metal jacket' . . . D'Onofrio shot himself because he could handle the pressure. the human mind and body can only take so much anguish before it turns on itself.

my uncle was in vietman. he came back in one peice, but his mind was so twisted from all the shyt he'd seen. he had PTSD and Schizophrenia. just hearing a helecopter fly over, or a movie w/ gunfire, . . . . that would set him off. screaming bloody murder, rolling or crawling on the floor, and barricading himself in a room. he took med's, but that wasnt enought. with all the trauma he sustained, he is disconnected.

Not all medical miracles can help. just like family, group or individual therapy can only help so much.

**50cal** · 08-12-2008, 02:10 PM

I used to tell my people, there is nothing wrong with asking for help....just be aware of who it is your asking help from.....the VA here in Prescott is doing their best to help us out....but it's not enough....I mean due to work schedules or anything else, it is very difficult to schedule anything with them.....I can't schedule appointments because my work schedule shifts unexpectedly......I'm always cancelling and my managers try to accomodate me as well.....but I feel guilty for being away from work so much, dealing with what I consider a personal issue.....how does one recover from that?.....Recently I went to see my psych and she gave me an entire pamphlet on suicide prevention...apparently during a session I mentioned some key phrases that they are trained to look for and now she thinks I'm gonna go kill myself....*L*....ah well, what can you do????....

**50cal** · 08-12-2008, 02:15 PM

oh, I was given more medication because the past meds I was given don't work.....what the f**k do I need more pills for?????.....i just stopped taking them....they are now collecting dust in my cupboard (not that my cupboard is dusty)......the whole pill taking is being pushed and now IMO, it is taken because we want to believe there is help.......there is no help, except family and it is up tot them to want to help you.......crazy isn't it?

timmy tiger · 08-12-2008, 02:22 PM

50 I do agree with you to a point. The counselor can only give you the tools to help yourself, in most cases--the person must want to help themselves in order for it to work. That does not include prescribing meds for people. Meds weren't involved with causing the PTSD, so why give them to help "cure" it. There is no cure in something like that, just learning to deal with, coop with and live with is all anyone can really do. It's the making people zombies and temporarily taking away the pain that really can cause more pain.

Once you actually have the tools and know what signs to look for and how to helpp yourself, then that's where your family does play a major roll in it by being supportive and understanding during those hard times and knowing themselves what to look for and expect. That's my opinion there.

My dad did 3 tours of NAM and back then there was no diagnosis of PTSD, do you think that he suffered--I sure do. PTSD didn't become an actual diagnosis until just a few years back. I know so many Vietnam Vets who have this affliction and they fought for years to find out what it was and how to treat it.

Kaina1128 · 08-12-2008, 04:22 PM

When I was at the Air Force Academy, I served as my squadron's Personal Education and Ethics Representative (PEER). PEERs act as the front line for mental and behavioral health issues for cadets. We handled anything from stress to sexual assault. In my training for that position I got to learn a lot about the DoD's (specifically USAF's) policies on seeking mental health services. There is a very damaging myth that EVERY TIME you receive services it will reflect poorly on your personnel record. This is rarely the case unless you become a threat to yourself and/o

08-12-2008, 12:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
50cal Natural Born Killer...... Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: In a socialist state..... Posts: 7,133	Back to the Topic.....Combat Stress and Suicide Anyway back to the topic at hand.....Combat Stress aka (PTSD) aka Fog of War aka Shell shock..... Combat Stress kills.... Combat stress kills - Posted : June 09, 2008 At least 172 service members have killed themselves while serving in Iraq or Afghanistan in the past six years. That means one out of every 26 combat-zone deaths is a suicide — almost 4 percent. Among nonhostile deaths in the war zones, suicides make up more than 18 percent. The problem gets worse after troops come home. The Veterans Affairs Department acknowledges vets under its care attempt suicide 1,000 times per month — and 17 of those attempts are successful. Combat’s emotional shrapnel takes its toll on troops of every service, race, age and rank. It can strike even the most dedicated high performers, as in the case of Army 1st Sgt. Jeff McKinney, who shot himself in the midst of a patrol in Baghdad last summer. If this many people were being killed by a new type of armor-piercing round, a task force would be formed and millions of dollars spent on countermeasures. The same needs to be done here. More needs to be done to combat the stigma attached to seeking mental health care and to teach troops and commanders alike to not only recognize the warning signs, but also to understand how best to respond. Admittedly, this is particularly difficult in a combat zone, when the day’s mission cannot be delayed or rescheduled. But unless and until troops and leaders at all levels accept the fact that the mental wounds of war are every bit as debilitating as the physical wounds, preventable tragedies like the suicide of Jeff McKinney will haunt us all. __________________ "Sweat dries, blood clots, bones heal. Suck it up. Be a Marine"

08-12-2008, 01:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
chazziff crossroads? maybe.... Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: can-na-duh Posts: 6,388	there is an outcry from the general public ... whenever the government spends any money on the military. as if ... spending money on it means more war or whatever. but this money is needed to help all those brave individuals who unselfishly decided to defend their country .. but at the same time ... these individuals need help themselves to take that first step for actually seeking mental help. there is a stigma of being considered ... weak ... for doing so. men in particular are raised to ... be strong and dont show signs of weakness and are more often not ... shown ways of dealing wit it. we as a people need to stop attaching this stigma for seeking this type of medical help ... because it is a part of a whole well-being - mental/emotional and physical well being. __________________ All you know is when I'm with you I make you free And swim through your veins like a fish in the sea

08-12-2008, 01:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tiki wakalapi wacinkte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 190	my husband just received a survey in the mail about deployment related stress and the programs available to us. Reading it made me realize how much is available in theory but not utilizable in reality. Also, we had a recent incident on our base of a Air Force member killing his children and himself in a domestic case. He had returned from Iraq a year ago, the wife had filed restraining orders against him and filed for divorce. Yet this member continued to live in on base housing with the children he had previously threatened to kill and his unit made all the claims against him disappear because "he was a good troop". Even after this incident they continued to hail him as a war hero and cited PTSD as a possible cause. Explain to me why nothing was done in the past year to help this "good troop". __________________ "canunpa wan ci ciaupi ca yanipiktelo" -ptehincala ska wi

08-12-2008, 01:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Tiki wakalapi wacinkte Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 190	TT I completely agree. We have services available to us such as Fleet and Family Support Centers where we can request things such as personal counseling, anger management and even marriage counseling. BUT every time a service member or their family member asks for such services, it reflects negatively on the service member. It can affect their eval, their orders even their personal fitness report. So most of us shy away from it. Also, you have to ask permission from your command to attend each session. So it is easier for them to just keep their mouth shut and go through their own private hell. Even service members who never have seen direct combat still suffer from immense stress during deployments and at home. Frankly they do not get the appropriate downtime. And on top of that they are expected to take classes, log training and get useless qualifications while working non stop for 12+ hours, sometimes 7 days a week and that is while not on deployment (for deployment add isolation from all family, no contact for weeks and longer workdays). Add to that trying to be with their families, please their spouses, even their parents. I wonder if there is a class of PTSD that can be caused by a non attack situation ie immense stress and pressure like that. __________________ "canunpa wan ci ciaupi ca yanipiktelo" -ptehincala ska wi

08-12-2008, 02:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
Mud_Woman shhh . . im thinking Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: beating the crap out of the other stick figure Posts: 3,772	just like 'full metal jacket' . . . D'Onofrio shot himself because he could handle the pressure. the human mind and body can only take so much anguish before it turns on itself. my uncle was in vietman. he came back in one peice, but his mind was so twisted from all the shyt he'd seen. he had PTSD and Schizophrenia. just hearing a helecopter fly over, or a movie w/ gunfire, . . . . that would set him off. screaming bloody murder, rolling or crawling on the floor, and barricading himself in a room. he took med's, but that wasnt enought. with all the trauma he sustained, he is disconnected. Not all medical miracles can help. just like family, group or individual therapy can only help so much. __________________

08-12-2008, 12:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
timmy tiger Head Dancer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me Posts: 17,412 Blog Entries: 3	I agree with the article that something needs to be done. They need to stop cutting the funding for the VA and veterans services and, maybe, cut some of the politicians paychecks. Now that would put alot of funds out there to help alot of people and that could afford the services that are needed in the military to help it's service men and women. Just a thought, but not likely to happen.

08-12-2008, 01:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
timmy tiger Head Dancer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me Posts: 17,412 Blog Entries: 3	Chaz, I totally agree with you there. They do need to ask for help, most who suffer from it. PTSD--doesn't just effect the military personal, it also effects: Policemen, Firemen, Ambulance corp personal, Rape Victims, Abuse Victims (Child or adult) and Molestation victims, and anyone who has had some form of Traumatic stress. With most of these they do need to come forward and ask for help 'cause some can deal better then other's and you just never know which ones need help more and which ones don't. But in the case of the Service men and women, Policemen, Firemen and Ambulance Corp personal--these are their jobs and professions and they are hired to protect and take care of the people. Therefore, in my opinion, there should be automatic services for them to get this help through their employer's and higher ups. Like maybe some kind of every 6 month evaluation or every year or something like that. More persons trained in diagnosing and caring for PTSD and things along those lines. This is just my opinion here.

08-12-2008, 02:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
timmy tiger Head Dancer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me Posts: 17,412 Blog Entries: 3	Yep Tiki, that's why I really do think that it should be an automatic ever so often for all and that might help this situation out. Traumatic Stress can really be caused by anything even the things that you mentioned, it's not just all physical--although those are the ones most noted 'cause many of them are documented, but the psychological ones such as you mentioned aren't usually really documented and are not noticed as PTSD, more like someone just being home sick or "Weak".

08-12-2008, 02:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
50cal Natural Born Killer...... Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: In a socialist state..... Posts: 7,133	I used to tell my people, there is nothing wrong with asking for help....just be aware of who it is your asking help from.....the VA here in Prescott is doing their best to help us out....but it's not enough....I mean due to work schedules or anything else, it is very difficult to schedule anything with them.....I can't schedule appointments because my work schedule shifts unexpectedly......I'm always cancelling and my managers try to accomodate me as well.....but I feel guilty for being away from work so much, dealing with what I consider a personal issue.....how does one recover from that?.....Recently I went to see my psych and she gave me an entire pamphlet on suicide prevention...apparently during a session I mentioned some key phrases that they are trained to look for and now she thinks I'm gonna go kill myself....L....ah well, what can you do????.... __________________ "Sweat dries, blood clots, bones heal. Suck it up. Be a Marine"

08-12-2008, 02:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
50cal Natural Born Killer...... Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: In a socialist state..... Posts: 7,133	oh, I was given more medication because the past meds I was given don't work.....what the fk do I need more pills for?????.....i just stopped taking them....they are now collecting dust in my cupboard (not that my cupboard is dusty)......the whole pill taking is being pushed and now IMO, it is taken because we want to believe there is help.......there is no help, except family and it is up tot them to want to help you.......crazy isn't it? __________________ "Sweat dries, blood clots, bones heal. Suck it up. Be a Marine"**

08-12-2008, 02:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
timmy tiger Head Dancer Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me Posts: 17,412 Blog Entries: 3	50 I do agree with you to a point. The counselor can only give you the tools to help yourself, in most cases--the person must want to help themselves in order for it to work. That does not include prescribing meds for people. Meds weren't involved with causing the PTSD, so why give them to help "cure" it. There is no cure in something like that, just learning to deal with, coop with and live with is all anyone can really do. It's the making people zombies and temporarily taking away the pain that really can cause more pain. Once you actually have the tools and know what signs to look for and how to helpp yourself, then that's where your family does play a major roll in it by being supportive and understanding during those hard times and knowing themselves what to look for and expect. That's my opinion there. My dad did 3 tours of NAM and back then there was no diagnosis of PTSD, do you think that he suffered--I sure do. PTSD didn't become an actual diagnosis until just a few years back. I know so many Vietnam Vets who have this affliction and they fought for years to find out what it was and how to treat it.