Hard sole mocs tutorial

powwowbum49 · 08-24-2003, 03:42 AM

Well, I guess I ought to start this tutorial since I said I would. Folks this is not going to be put up on the board really fast cause I have tons of other projects going at the same time, but I will try not to drag it out forever.

I am going to do this as a general plains style hard sole moc which can be adjusted slight to the subtle differences to fit a more specific tribal style.

The first thing is to choose your materials. You can do this based on how much you want to spend and how much wear and tear the mocs are going to take. You will need two types of leather -- something hard for the sole (duh) like russet/saddle leather, latigo or rawhide and something soft for the upper like deer, elk or moose hide.

The most traditional way would be rawhide soles with brain tanned hide for the uppers (if that is important too you), but it will also be the most expensive for most people.

Soles - what to use for the sole will depend on personal preference, how much you can spend and how much use the mocs will get. Latigo and rawhide hold up very well over the long haul. Latigo will remain flat after use. Rawhide on the other hand will form to your foot once it is used for a while. Russet leather is the easiest to use but also wears out the fastest and should only be used if you can't afford the more expensive leather or you just don't plan on using the mocs that often.

Upper - the upper leather needs to be soft and workable. Brain tanned hide is my favorite choice. Commercial tanned hides are ok too though. If your mocs are going to be beaded and you are using commercial tanned hide you might want to find one with a good loft (fluffy) to the leather since hides like that are easier to bead. Keep in mind too that deer, elk and moose hide stretches to varying degrees. Commercial stretches a lot in comparison to brain tanned too and this stretch will need to be taken into account later on. Avoid cowhide, it does not make very good mocs. Cowhide is thick and rather stiff and hard to work with even when it is split.

Lifesaver13bsa · 08-27-2003, 03:13 PM

Where do you think I could get a fairly inexpensive brain tanned hide or a decent commercial hide?

thanks
Lifesaver

wyo_rose · 08-27-2003, 08:36 PM

I've used latigo for soles and it works great!!

Please elaborate on the rawhide. Do you have to work it to death? So should it be thicker rawhide? Are you getting it wet, so should you get extra? I've only bought some 'worked' hide, already cut to moc size. Which of course, I can't find anymore.

btw, my cousin upped her price for brain tan hides to between $200-380. OUCH!! She has decent commercial for around $60 - $80, but I'm sure I'm shooting myself in the foot by posting this and she'll be raising her prices when more peeps inquire.

When looking for a commercial hide, have a needle with ya and make sure it goes thru easy!! That's why I use size 12s to sew EVERYTHING (except rawhide, of course - then I used the smallest buckskin needles).

powwowbum49 · 08-28-2003, 02:11 AM

Wyo_Rose

The rawhide I am talking about is not like rawhide used for drums and such. Moc sole rawhide does not have the epidermis removed and in fact often all the hair is not removed either. Mind you it ain't 'furry' or nothing, but it is more like the flesh side is scrapped and then the hide is allowed to dry and then the fur side is scrapped. This way the epidermis is tuff and won't scrap away, the scrapper just kinda rips and breaks the hair in two, so any hair left is short and sporadic. I will post a pic of some rawhide for moc sole that I have around here waiting to be made into mocs. A rawhide sole are no harder to work with than a thick (1/4") latigo sole is. They are usually only about 1/8" thick, so yes if you look at the same thickness they are harder, but not any harder than a thick latigo sole.

Livesaver

As for places to buy brain tanned hides....well, I would suggest you find someone in your area that does them. I personally hate to buy any hide and especially brain tanned hides sight unseen. Brain tanning can be a tedious process and some folks don't work the hide as much as it should be to get them done faster. For this reason I always like to see a hide before I buy it.

08-28-2003, 11:43 AM

I could sure as heck use some help as well;) I found out the hard way that cowhide is NOT the way to go, too damned tough to work with

Anyways, a few questions:

Do you have to use a welt in construction of the mocc?

I have tried to make a pair before, but when I got around to the heel part, I found out the top part did not match the heel part, for example I tried to sew it to the top, and when I put the mocc on, it was too small! That and I am unsure of how to sew up the back of the mocc.. hmmmmmm

wyo_rose · 08-28-2003, 01:08 PM

OIC!

I thought those soles were kinda hairy!:Chatter

Well, I really still don't know where to get it. Does Crazy Crow sell it, or somewhere like that?

Sounds like it would be the easier kind to make yourself. If I have a free month maybe I'll try it this fall.

Candy · 08-28-2003, 02:25 PM

You may want to try Leather Unlimited if you're not into Tandy's.

piperchick · 08-28-2003, 02:32 PM

for my first try at plain mocs i went to the leather company in austin tx (sometimes it's tandy's) and talked a lot w/ the guy there that makes renfaire boots (very common in texas, actually) showed me the leather they have labelled as (i think) moccassin leather or sewn shoe leather, or something like that.. as fair season was dying down i got it discount (and i drug along a friend w/ a wholesale membership; a bunch of fire performers just all pitch in and about four dozen or so of us use the same card:))
they have *thus far* been very nice and comfy and reasonably water resistant, i added an insole for my flat feet but otherwise it just that leather... i've danced in them indoors and outdoors and wore them around town for a few weeks to break them in and to get used to the feel of them.

MAROONDANCER · 08-28-2003, 04:23 PM

PWB49
YOU Are a life saver . I've been looking for this pattern for a while . anything that saves me money i'm happy with. I scanned thyis aff from northern traditional dancer but it turned out unreadable . you are so great.:D

Rob

powwowbum49 · 08-29-2003, 01:08 AM

Well, here is the pic I said I would take of the sole leathers. The bottom left is latigo, the bottom right is rawhide and the roll at the top is russet/haress leather.

I should be able to start getting some more post up on this after the holiday weekend.

MD

Thanks for the vote of confidence but what I am posting is not from that book. This is my experiences at making mocs over the last 20+ years. I would say without a doubt there are better folks at making these things than me out there but I don't think I am too bad at it. About 2 years ago I finally started getting them to turn out the way I thought they should and my kids mocs that are posted in the gallery are what my mocs are looking like these days. Oh yeah, and I haven't even posted the part about how to make a pattern yet...LOL!

WolfTears · 08-29-2003, 01:36 AM

Is waiting like a kid at a candy store window

**spottedeagle** · 08-29-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MenNie Turtles
Is waiting like a kid at a candy store window

Long as you don't start drooling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

WolfTears · 08-29-2003, 02:38 PM

wipes her little chin ...darn didnt mean for anyone to see that ...roflmao

08-24-2003, 03:42 AM	#1 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 792	Hard sole mocs tutorial Well, I guess I ought to start this tutorial since I said I would. Folks this is not going to be put up on the board really fast cause I have tons of other projects going at the same time, but I will try not to drag it out forever. I am going to do this as a general plains style hard sole moc which can be adjusted slight to the subtle differences to fit a more specific tribal style. The first thing is to choose your materials. You can do this based on how much you want to spend and how much wear and tear the mocs are going to take. You will need two types of leather -- something hard for the sole (duh) like russet/saddle leather, latigo or rawhide and something soft for the upper like deer, elk or moose hide. The most traditional way would be rawhide soles with brain tanned hide for the uppers (if that is important too you), but it will also be the most expensive for most people. Soles - what to use for the sole will depend on personal preference, how much you can spend and how much use the mocs will get. Latigo and rawhide hold up very well over the long haul. Latigo will remain flat after use. Rawhide on the other hand will form to your foot once it is used for a while. Russet leather is the easiest to use but also wears out the fastest and should only be used if you can't afford the more expensive leather or you just don't plan on using the mocs that often. Upper - the upper leather needs to be soft and workable. Brain tanned hide is my favorite choice. Commercial tanned hides are ok too though. If your mocs are going to be beaded and you are using commercial tanned hide you might want to find one with a good loft (fluffy) to the leather since hides like that are easier to bead. Keep in mind too that deer, elk and moose hide stretches to varying degrees. Commercial stretches a lot in comparison to brain tanned too and this stretch will need to be taken into account later on. Avoid cowhide, it does not make very good mocs. Cowhide is thick and rather stiff and hard to work with even when it is split. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

08-27-2003, 03:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lifesaver13bsa Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Newnan, Georgia and Jacksonville, Alabama Posts: 1	Where do you think I could get a fairly inexpensive brain tanned hide or a decent commercial hide? thanks Lifesaver Last edited by Lifesaver13bsa; 08-27-2003 at 03:15 PM.

08-28-2003, 02:11 AM	#4 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 792	Wyo_Rose The rawhide I am talking about is not like rawhide used for drums and such. Moc sole rawhide does not have the epidermis removed and in fact often all the hair is not removed either. Mind you it ain't 'furry' or nothing, but it is more like the flesh side is scrapped and then the hide is allowed to dry and then the fur side is scrapped. This way the epidermis is tuff and won't scrap away, the scrapper just kinda rips and breaks the hair in two, so any hair left is short and sporadic. I will post a pic of some rawhide for moc sole that I have around here waiting to be made into mocs. A rawhide sole are no harder to work with than a thick (1/4") latigo sole is. They are usually only about 1/8" thick, so yes if you look at the same thickness they are harder, but not any harder than a thick latigo sole. Livesaver As for places to buy brain tanned hides....well, I would suggest you find someone in your area that does them. I personally hate to buy any hide and especially brain tanned hides sight unseen. Brain tanning can be a tedious process and some folks don't work the hide as much as it should be to get them done faster. For this reason I always like to see a hide before I buy it. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

08-28-2003, 02:25 PM	#7 (permalink)
Candy Junior Dancer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Close enough to I-70 to smell the fumes. Posts: 100	You may want to try Leather Unlimited if you're not into Tandy's. __________________ He who laughs last thinks slowest.

08-28-2003, 02:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
piperchick Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: TEXAS Posts: 35	for my first try at plain mocs i went to the leather company in austin tx (sometimes it's tandy's) and talked a lot w/ the guy there that makes renfaire boots (very common in texas, actually) showed me the leather they have labelled as (i think) moccassin leather or sewn shoe leather, or something like that.. as fair season was dying down i got it discount (and i drug along a friend w/ a wholesale membership; a bunch of fire performers just all pitch in and about four dozen or so of us use the same card:)) they have thus far been very nice and comfy and reasonably water resistant, i added an insole for my flat feet but otherwise it just that leather... i've danced in them indoors and outdoors and wore them around town for a few weeks to break them in and to get used to the feel of them. __________________ *************************** I am me, and that's all i can be; no more, no less. ***************************

08-27-2003, 08:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
wyo_rose Teenah's Too Cool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Washakie Posts: 7,859 Blog Entries: 2	I've used latigo for soles and it works great!! Please elaborate on the rawhide. Do you have to work it to death? So should it be thicker rawhide? Are you getting it wet, so should you get extra? I've only bought some 'worked' hide, already cut to moc size. Which of course, I can't find anymore. btw, my cousin upped her price for brain tan hides to between $200-380. OUCH!! She has decent commercial for around $60 - $80, but I'm sure I'm shooting myself in the foot by posting this and she'll be raising her prices when more peeps inquire. When looking for a commercial hide, have a needle with ya and make sure it goes thru easy!! That's why I use size 12s to sew EVERYTHING (except rawhide, of course - then I used the smallest buckskin needles).

08-28-2003, 11:43 AM	#5 (permalink)
Riverwoman Guest Posts: n/a	I could sure as heck use some help as well;) I found out the hard way that cowhide is NOT the way to go, too damned tough to work with Anyways, a few questions: Do you have to use a welt in construction of the mocc? I have tried to make a pair before, but when I got around to the heel part, I found out the top part did not match the heel part, for example I tried to sew it to the top, and when I put the mocc on, it was too small! That and I am unsure of how to sew up the back of the mocc.. hmmmmmm

08-28-2003, 01:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
wyo_rose Teenah's Too Cool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Washakie Posts: 7,859 Blog Entries: 2	OIC! I thought those soles were kinda hairy!:Chatter Well, I really still don't know where to get it. Does Crazy Crow sell it, or somewhere like that? Sounds like it would be the easier kind to make yourself. If I have a free month maybe I'll try it this fall.

08-28-2003, 04:23 PM	#9 (permalink)
MAROONDANCER gawk where's the gun Gawk Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cardboard box on the street corner Posts: 247	PWB49 YOU Are a life saver . I've been looking for this pattern for a while . anything that saves me money i'm happy with. I scanned thyis aff from northern traditional dancer but it turned out unreadable . you are so great.:D Rob __________________ 'i believe I can fly' Rob Young

08-29-2003, 01:36 AM	#11 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	Is waiting like a kid at a candy store window

08-29-2003, 02:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	wipes her little chin ...darn didnt mean for anyone to see that ...roflmao

09-07-2003, 05:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
MAROONDANCER gawk where's the gun Gawk Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cardboard box on the street corner Posts: 247