Hard sole mocs tutorial - Page 4

powwowbum49 · 05-10-2004, 02:31 PM

Yelloweyes

Thanks video that was mentioned is notorious for producing 'baggy' upper. For the most part though you will always have some excess hide to cut off at the heal seem and is not necessarily a bad thing, but excess from side to side on moc will cause the 'baggy' thang everytime and should be avoided. There are several things that can help cut down on this happening when you are making your mocs.

Every hide has some stretch too it and some have more than others, the trick is finding the ones that do not stretch excessively. You see hides stretch more from side to side than from head to butt of the hide. Also, a hide will stretch more near the stomach (which is the outer side edges of a hide), than it does along the back bone. When you lay the upper pattern out on the hide avoid the temptation of maximizing the hide use because of this stretch factor. By this I mean make sure that the leather under the pattern is as even in thickness as possible and that what stretch that is there runs from toe to heal of your pattern and not across the moc.

Now, I disagree with hockeyfan in that I do stretch the upper as I sew it around the mocs. I do not tork the heck out of it but I keep the hide smooth and snug as I sew it around the toe and back to the arch.

Now when I make my patterns I trace the foot with the persons weight on it (which if the moc is for yourself means having someone else trace it for you) and before the weight is removed I measure across the arch of the foot (which is about where your shoe string tie on a normal low top tennis shoe) and mark the sole where that measurement was taken. I then run a line down the center of the moc sole (this line runs from the measured center of the heel to the big toe side of the center toe and I often mark this front mark when I am tracing the foot) and then I draw a line across the pattern between the arch marks making sure that this line is as close to 90 degrees from the heel/toe line as possible by eye. The I use the arch measurement to continue the arch line out to size. (ie. If the arch measurement is 8" then put 4" on either side of the heel toe line and do not add the extra length that the video suggests.) Now after rounding the sole to shape, draw your upper pattern using the these marks. Just swing the line out from about a 1/8-1/4" in front of the toes out to the ends of the arch line, then use a ruler to run a line on back from that toward the heel along that same curve shape.( the finished pattern should look a bit like an inverted V, except for the rounded area at the toe)

Not sure if you will be able to understand this without the picture I had planned to accompany these instructions, but with any luck I have made it clear enough.

hockeyfan_019 · 05-10-2004, 03:39 PM

Yes PWB, I guess I also stretch "a little" but I remember one pair where I had the heel off by more than 1"! I must've not been paying attention, cause that was really a terrible fit! If I am doing a good job, I won't need to trim more than 1/2" during the "heel fit" stage...

The reason this interests me so much, is I've made several pair where the future owner (gift pairs) were not readily available, and I wanted a "perfect" fit right out of the gate. I've tried to make sure I didn't stretch too much, so I could have a good fit right away, without having to be refit afterward.

When a couple pair didn't line up at the heel, I figured "oh well" and then trimmed away the excess along the sole until the 1/2s of the uppers fit flush, WITHOUT having the owner try them on... Long story short, it's always possible to cut excess leather OFF a pattern, but NOT to ADD another 1/2" back on! Too big is better than too small.

Thanks,
Tom

~*~MizzQaqimat~*~ · 05-10-2004, 04:54 PM

anyone have any opinion about using canvas for the uppers? it's going to be beaded of course. Also, what's this someone said about their latigo fell apart, or disentegrated or something when it got wet? Does that happen a lot? Also, you sew the upper to the sole, inside out right, then flip it right side out? And how do you make it so that your beadwork goes all the way touching the sole, like, not leaving any unbeaded area between the upper and the sole?

powwowbum49 · 05-10-2004, 08:46 PM

Hockeyfan

You are ever so right in the fact that too big can be worked around but too small is a disaster!

CNG

I have never made mocs with canvas upper and never will, especially since hide is close to the same price as good canvas that is not on sale. I have seen one pair done on canvas and it looked very nice, but that pair still had a 1/2" strip of leather sewn to the sole and them the canvas part stitched to that. As for the latigo falling apart...I have no clue on that cause it has never happened to a single pair I have made using the stuff. Yes, I sew the mocs inside out and then pop them, but I do know some folks that just sew the toe area inside out and the they pop them and finish sewing the rest with it looking normal. And finally as for the beadwork going all the way down to the meet the sole. I can't say I can honestly remember seeing any that do, but if that is what you want to do then I would say you will need to put that last row of beadwork on after the mocs are sewn up and popped

hockeyfan_019 · 05-11-2004, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChenoaNativeGirl

anyone have any opinion about using canvas for the uppers? it's going to be beaded of course. Also, what's this someone said about their latigo fell apart, or disentegrated or something when it got wet? Does that happen a lot? Also, you sew the upper to the sole, inside out right, then flip it right side out? And how do you make it so that your beadwork goes all the way touching the sole, like, not leaving any unbeaded area between the upper and the sole?

Hi CNG,

I was just thinking, perhaps you are working with a "pucker-type" upper? I've made these before too, and I attached the upper to the sole inside-out like we described, but the "vamp" across the top of the arch (the part in front of the tongue, that has the puckers along the edge) was always attached when it was right-side-out...

As for the beading-to-edge, I think that PWB is exactly right, the last row or 2 would need to be attached after turning back right-side-out. I can't recall seeing any where the last row actually "covered" the seam, normally I see a bit of a gap above the seam before the beadwork. On mine, I normally leave a bit of gap here on purpose, since I seem to sometimes get the moc twisted on my foot a bit during "rough" usage... If there was no gap, I'd end up walking on the beadwork, and damage it. As it is, without a welt the seam takes a bit of abuse, and the thread wears.

hth, Tom

wyo_rose · 05-11-2004, 12:34 PM

OK, well here's my two and a half cents about stretching. Hides do stretch more side to side than head to tail, BUT line up your mocs toe to heel line with the head to tail line of the hide. In other words you want your moc to stretch from side to side. If you think this is going to make a baggy upper, TRIM IT. This was taught to me by the elder ladies who showed me how to make mocs.

I make a new pattern for each foot and do a 'dry fit' to see how the top fits on the sole. It's good to have a little extra on the top and 'gather' slightly around the ball of the foot and the opposite side. Some gathering at both sides of the heel is good too.

I also fold my upper in half and mark the halfway point, and fold each side up and mark halfway to the toe on each side. I do the same with the sole and line up the marks. Most of the time I'll actually tack the top and sole together on those marks so the top doesn't shift as it gets sewed on.

I do fabric and or canvas mocs all the time. Place the upper pattern on the bias of the fabric, cuz you need a little stretch to get your foot in. Then I use a commercial buckskin sole, sometimes doubled.

wyo_rose · 05-11-2004, 12:36 PM

Oh, and I edge the fabric or canvas upper with bias tape BEFORE beading or appliqueing the design. Sew it on with a couple rows of stitching and it's much less likely to 'blow out'. :p

powwowbum49 · 05-12-2004, 12:40 AM

Rose

I never had any luck having the stretch going side to side on a pair of mocs. I did a pair for myself years ago that were cut that way and I ended up having to put an insole in them and wear socks with my mocs just to get them to fit, because the dang elk hide stretched so much. That upper gained almost 1 1/2" across the arch after it was popped right side out, and it didn't contract back much either.

For me, that way would be just to iffy cause I like a snug fit across my arch and I can always trim excess from stretching off at the heel seam when it runs on the toe/heel line, but if it works for you...more power to ya...LOL.

I would love to see some of those fabric upper mocs you make if you have any pics of them.

**Yelloweyes** · 05-13-2004, 06:45 AM

powwowbum49

Thanks for the help. See I knew I had forgotten some of what my grandmother showed me. That's what I get for not doing that many mocs for too many years. Tend to forget the little bits of info. let you know how I end up.

wyo_rose · 05-13-2004, 12:23 PM

Well, that's the way I was taught, PWBum. But if you hide stretched and didn't contract that would be the pits. I actually made some mocs when my kids were little and cut one out 'sideways' cuz I was almost out of hide. It stretched the long ways and she had a baggy heel.

The amount of stretch does vary in different parts of the hide. But geez, it's so expensive you really gotta use every square inch.

I'll check for fabric moc pics. Or maybe I'll make some more. :)

powwowbum49 · 05-21-2004, 04:22 AM

Okay, I have some more for this tutorial. I am going break down the steps of making a pattern and accompany each step with a photo.

STEP 1

The first step is to trace the foot. Be sure to do this with weight on the foot (since without weight the foot is skinnier than when weight is one it). Also before moving the foot measure the length over the arch. This measurement should be taken at about the point where a pair of low top tennis shoes laces tie at. Be sure to mark on either side of the foot tracing where you took the measurement at, since this will be important later.

Now if you are making mocs for someone else that is sending you their tracing...be sure to let them know that it is important that they get this stuff down for you, or their mocs might not fit well after you are done...LOL!

powwowbum49 · 05-21-2004, 04:24 AM

Step 2

Next you will want to sketch the heel area and toe areas of the sole. Run a line connecting the tops of the toes and then continue it around the sides down to where the toe would meet the ball of the foot. At the heel get a good even shape to the heel area and then continue the line up about an inch or so from the heel.

powwowbum49 · 05-21-2004, 04:27 AM

STEP 3

Next use a ruler to connect the toe and heel lines on each side of the foot. Do not worry if it goes insde or outside the tracing of the foot.

05-10-2004, 02:31 PM	#61 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	Yelloweyes Thanks video that was mentioned is notorious for producing 'baggy' upper. For the most part though you will always have some excess hide to cut off at the heal seem and is not necessarily a bad thing, but excess from side to side on moc will cause the 'baggy' thang everytime and should be avoided. There are several things that can help cut down on this happening when you are making your mocs. Every hide has some stretch too it and some have more than others, the trick is finding the ones that do not stretch excessively. You see hides stretch more from side to side than from head to butt of the hide. Also, a hide will stretch more near the stomach (which is the outer side edges of a hide), than it does along the back bone. When you lay the upper pattern out on the hide avoid the temptation of maximizing the hide use because of this stretch factor. By this I mean make sure that the leather under the pattern is as even in thickness as possible and that what stretch that is there runs from toe to heal of your pattern and not across the moc. Now, I disagree with hockeyfan in that I do stretch the upper as I sew it around the mocs. I do not tork the heck out of it but I keep the hide smooth and snug as I sew it around the toe and back to the arch. Now when I make my patterns I trace the foot with the persons weight on it (which if the moc is for yourself means having someone else trace it for you) and before the weight is removed I measure across the arch of the foot (which is about where your shoe string tie on a normal low top tennis shoe) and mark the sole where that measurement was taken. I then run a line down the center of the moc sole (this line runs from the measured center of the heel to the big toe side of the center toe and I often mark this front mark when I am tracing the foot) and then I draw a line across the pattern between the arch marks making sure that this line is as close to 90 degrees from the heel/toe line as possible by eye. The I use the arch measurement to continue the arch line out to size. (ie. If the arch measurement is 8" then put 4" on either side of the heel toe line and do not add the extra length that the video suggests.) Now after rounding the sole to shape, draw your upper pattern using the these marks. Just swing the line out from about a 1/8-1/4" in front of the toes out to the ends of the arch line, then use a ruler to run a line on back from that toward the heel along that same curve shape.( the finished pattern should look a bit like an inverted V, except for the rounded area at the toe) Not sure if you will be able to understand this without the picture I had planned to accompany these instructions, but with any luck I have made it clear enough. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

05-10-2004, 04:54 PM	#63 (permalink)
~~MizzQaqimat~~ Jingle Dancer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Presidio of Monterey, California Posts: 389	anyone have any opinion about using canvas for the uppers? it's going to be beaded of course. Also, what's this someone said about their latigo fell apart, or disentegrated or something when it got wet? Does that happen a lot? Also, you sew the upper to the sole, inside out right, then flip it right side out? And how do you make it so that your beadwork goes all the way touching the sole, like, not leaving any unbeaded area between the upper and the sole? __________________ TARHEEL BORN, TARHEEL BRED, WHEN I DIE I'LL BE TARHEEL DEAD! MizzQaqimat's Space

05-10-2004, 08:46 PM	#64 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	Hockeyfan You are ever so right in the fact that too big can be worked around but too small is a disaster! CNG I have never made mocs with canvas upper and never will, especially since hide is close to the same price as good canvas that is not on sale. I have seen one pair done on canvas and it looked very nice, but that pair still had a 1/2" strip of leather sewn to the sole and them the canvas part stitched to that. As for the latigo falling apart...I have no clue on that cause it has never happened to a single pair I have made using the stuff. Yes, I sew the mocs inside out and then pop them, but I do know some folks that just sew the toe area inside out and the they pop them and finish sewing the rest with it looking normal. And finally as for the beadwork going all the way down to the meet the sole. I can't say I can honestly remember seeing any that do, but if that is what you want to do then I would say you will need to put that last row of beadwork on after the mocs are sewn up and popped __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

05-12-2004, 12:40 AM	#68 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	Rose I never had any luck having the stretch going side to side on a pair of mocs. I did a pair for myself years ago that were cut that way and I ended up having to put an insole in them and wear socks with my mocs just to get them to fit, because the dang elk hide stretched so much. That upper gained almost 1 1/2" across the arch after it was popped right side out, and it didn't contract back much either. For me, that way would be just to iffy cause I like a snug fit across my arch and I can always trim excess from stretching off at the heel seam when it runs on the toe/heel line, but if it works for you...more power to ya...LOL. I would love to see some of those fabric upper mocs you make if you have any pics of them. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

05-10-2004, 03:39 PM	#62 (permalink)
hockeyfan_019 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 69	Yes PWB, I guess I also stretch "a little" but I remember one pair where I had the heel off by more than 1"! I must've not been paying attention, cause that was really a terrible fit! If I am doing a good job, I won't need to trim more than 1/2" during the "heel fit" stage... The reason this interests me so much, is I've made several pair where the future owner (gift pairs) were not readily available, and I wanted a "perfect" fit right out of the gate. I've tried to make sure I didn't stretch too much, so I could have a good fit right away, without having to be refit afterward. When a couple pair didn't line up at the heel, I figured "oh well" and then trimmed away the excess along the sole until the 1/2s of the uppers fit flush, WITHOUT having the owner try them on... Long story short, it's always possible to cut excess leather OFF a pattern, but NOT to ADD another 1/2" back on! Too big is better than too small. Thanks, Tom

05-11-2004, 12:34 PM	#66 (permalink)
wyo_rose Teenah's Too Cool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Washakie Posts: 8,015 Blog Entries: 2	OK, well here's my two and a half cents about stretching. Hides do stretch more side to side than head to tail, BUT line up your mocs toe to heel line with the head to tail line of the hide. In other words you want your moc to stretch from side to side. If you think this is going to make a baggy upper, TRIM IT. This was taught to me by the elder ladies who showed me how to make mocs. I make a new pattern for each foot and do a 'dry fit' to see how the top fits on the sole. It's good to have a little extra on the top and 'gather' slightly around the ball of the foot and the opposite side. Some gathering at both sides of the heel is good too. I also fold my upper in half and mark the halfway point, and fold each side up and mark halfway to the toe on each side. I do the same with the sole and line up the marks. Most of the time I'll actually tack the top and sole together on those marks so the top doesn't shift as it gets sewed on. I do fabric and or canvas mocs all the time. Place the upper pattern on the bias of the fabric, cuz you need a little stretch to get your foot in. Then I use a commercial buckskin sole, sometimes doubled.

05-11-2004, 12:36 PM	#67 (permalink)
wyo_rose Teenah's Too Cool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Washakie Posts: 8,015 Blog Entries: 2	Oh, and I edge the fabric or canvas upper with bias tape BEFORE beading or appliqueing the design. Sew it on with a couple rows of stitching and it's much less likely to 'blow out'. :p

05-13-2004, 06:45 AM	#69 (permalink)
Yelloweyes PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chino, Calif Posts: 1,601	powwowbum49 Thanks for the help. See I knew I had forgotten some of what my grandmother showed me. That's what I get for not doing that many mocs for too many years. Tend to forget the little bits of info. let you know how I end up.

05-13-2004, 12:23 PM	#70 (permalink)
wyo_rose Teenah's Too Cool Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Washakie Posts: 8,015 Blog Entries: 2	Well, that's the way I was taught, PWBum. But if you hide stretched and didn't contract that would be the pits. I actually made some mocs when my kids were little and cut one out 'sideways' cuz I was almost out of hide. It stretched the long ways and she had a baggy heel. The amount of stretch does vary in different parts of the hide. But geez, it's so expensive you really gotta use every square inch. I'll check for fabric moc pics. Or maybe I'll make some more. :)