Hard sole mocs tutorial - Page 3

Donna D · 10-20-2003, 02:41 PM

We had trouble with latigo disintegrating after it got wet and the stitches breaking loose. Pig skin works better for soles and it lasts a really long time!

FancyStar · 10-23-2003, 09:40 AM

Ok Now that you got the supplies you want together how do you make an accurate moc pattern?

Czechy · 10-24-2003, 04:41 PM

Gah, I came in late on this subject! Sorry.....

I've made mocs with both latigo and rawhide soles. I actually prefer the rawhide since I have bad luck ordering latigo leather. For some reason I seem to get the tough, dense latigo pieces which don't hold my stitches.

For soles, I get buffalo rawhide from a guy in Hot Springs, SD. About $12 a piece. Larry Belitz is his name. He has an online catalog of rawhide and bison products including deer braintan. Reasonable prices too. Can't remember the web address....but a search on bison products might unearth it for ya.

For the thinner awls, Crazy Crow sells them. You have to get the one with the antler handle. Not the scratch awl.

For thread to sew the soles on, I use a strong twisted thread that is used to string the heavy squash blossom necklaces on. I love this stuff but have no idea what its called or where to get more of it.

In sewing the soles on, you don't want to use knots as these irritate your feet and are often not very securely tied. Do this instead. In beginning a new thread, leave a 1" tail. Sew over the tail when you make your next few stitches. When ending a thread, just use your needle to tuck the tail back through the last few stitches. You may want to weave the tail back and forth once or twice for extra security. But I'm getting ahead of the game here..... bad girl!

:devil :devil

tukisha · 12-31-2003, 04:27 PM

waiting patiently for this tutorial to continue.

C_Rock77 · 01-02-2004, 01:43 AM

For all of you folks that are waiting patiently (and not so patiently) for this tutorial to continue and finish.....

Have you heard of the video produced by Full Circle Videos? They have a video on how to construct the Plains hard-sole mocs with a few variations. They cover material selection, pattern making, and construction of the actual shoes. It's a GREAT video and features some of the best moccasin makers in the country! Mike Kostelnik, who writes for Whispering Wind and has made upwards of 80 prs of mocs, appears on the video. I was able to make a well-fitting and good-looking pair of mocs with the help of this video.

For uppers, I have have good luck with a product that Crazy Crow Trading Post has carried in the past. It is a "German Tanned" buckskin. They have it in a natural and a white color. It's not quite as soft as brain-tanned, but for the difference in price, I can't see the added cost of brain-tanned. This stuff is really good.

powwowbum49 · 01-02-2004, 02:46 AM

Tukisha

My apology, I have been really busy and haven't started on the pair of mocs I was going to make and take pics of for this thread. I should be back at it within the next few weeks.

C_Rock

Nice work! That video is a very good instructional aid. I do not agree with everything they tell folks to do in it, but all in all I would recommend it to folks, just as I would tell folks with average dawgs that Crazy Crows patterns can work well too. Though neither are perfect, but for a first time mocs maker any help is better than none.

C_Rock77 · 01-02-2004, 02:53 AM

THX PB.....

I agree with you on the vid. I can't point out any specifics about that video that I DON'T agree with. However, it will help you to make a wearable pair of mocs 1st time out of the barrell. Like most information, you pull the things you find helpful and leave the things you don't......

Czechy · 01-07-2004, 10:29 PM

I like that video too. It is great for those wanting to learn to make mocs with latigo or harness leather soles. My only complaint is that there is no mention of how to work with rawhide soles. There are a couple things that have to be done differently. Maybe in the next edition.....

C_Rock77 · 01-08-2004, 03:05 AM

I've never made any with rawhide soles. I'd like to try it, sometime. White Latigo has worked really well for me in the past. Not to mention I have a boat load of it at home. Some Leather tannery was selling "scraps" at a powwow I went to. These "scraps" were about 2 ft wide at their widest and were pretty long. It was the stuff they couldn't use to cut straps, I guess. It looks like the pieces that were cut off to square up the hides before they start cutting straps. It's perfectly fine to cut soles from.

Anyone need some good white Latigo for soles? I'll sell u some ;).

MAROONDANCER · 01-31-2004, 08:51 PM

Pards:
sorry I've been kinda MIA the last few weeks . I've been beading my new moccs. My parents asked me what I needed left in my regalia and they got me a Moccisins kit from crazy crow with the latigo soles . Right now I'm finishing up beading my first mocc and i still haveone more left to go. the only thing I've found so far is that latigo sucks to work with . I know I'll get allot of crap for this but I've worked with rawhide before and latigo sucks. I've broken 2 exacto-knives and have a real nice cut on my index finger to show for it, but hey! just show's I'm doing something instead of sitting around all day, i am feeling kinda weak sooo I'll saygoood buhh*faint's from lack of blood*

C_Rock77 · 01-31-2004, 11:59 PM

Buying the Crazy Crow kit was your first mistake. CCTP has some good materials, but the materials in the kits aren't usually the best. The buckskin (or cowhide) they sell you in the kits sucks. Commercial tan is HARD to bead on, to say the least.

For your next pair, I'd suggest trying out their German Tan leather. It's as close to brain-tan as you can get without paying through the nose! It's not as soft as brain-tan, but it's close enough for the money.

I've seen the latigo CCTP uses for soles, and I must admit, yes, it sucks. It's more like belt leather than what I'd consider latigo. The latigo I've used was great. It's a white color and VERY stiff. I'd say it's second only to rawhide.

MAROONDANCER · 02-01-2004, 11:04 AM

Pard:
1. I didn't buy the kit.
2. i'm going to make another set later
3. i'm only learning , this is the best way to learn, make it using the kit then move on to make the better pair
4.By the way my mother didn't buy me commercial tanned cowhide. she got me the gold buckskin.
5. the stuff I got with the kit is really easy to bead on it's like butter.

Rob young

C_Rock77 · 02-01-2004, 11:59 AM

I bought kits, too when I got started. You just usually don't get as much for your money.

As for their gold buckskin being like butter.....
I used to think that.....until I did some beadwork on brain-tan. Once you go brain-tanned, you'll never go back to commercial tan! I PROMISE you!

Up until I got my hands on some german or brain-tanned, I was like, "WHY would you want to pay these outrageous prices for brain-tanned leather?!" Get a sample of their german-tanned, or some brain tanned. Try beading on it. It's SO much easier to get a needle through. I've beaded on their gold buckskin, before. I'm telling you, there's NO comparison! You'll see. Call up a place that brain tans and get a sample of their leather. You can pretty much bead almost twice as fast with better results on brain-tanned.

BTW, If you'd be interested, I'll cut you a set of white latigo soles from my stash for around $10. It's a lot better than the stuff I've gotten from CCTP.

I'm not bad-mouthing CCTP. I buy a lot of their stuff, and Rex Reddick is a good guy. It's just that some things they carry are much better than others, and there's no way to know until you get it.

A piece of advice....
Try to find some good knife-edged shears (scissors) to cut your leather with. They're stout enough and sharp enough to cut latigo, and you won't run the risk of slicing your finger. I haven't had any problems cutting leather (latigo or otherwise) with scissors. I just find it easier. X-Acto knives are nice, but one slip, and you ruin your piece or slice a finger.

MAROONDANCER · 02-01-2004, 06:55 PM

Pard:
okay I'll admit , I lose. I tried to sew one of the moccs and as soon as I turned it inside out most of the beadwork popped off, so that sucked , I had to got back through and sew all the little edges up agian .

Rob young

C_Rock77 · 02-02-2004, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SPAMDANCER
Pard:
okay I'll admit , I lose. I tried to sew one of the moccs and as soon as I turned it inside out most of the beadwork popped off, so that sucked , I had to got back through and sew all the little edges up agian . Rob young

HOW did the beadwork pop off?

Blackbear · 02-02-2004, 08:34 PM

well you are'nt supposed to go all the way through the hide and sometimes if they are'nt stitched into enough of the hide, the threads will pop back through the hide and hang in one big beadwork line.

**Yelloweyes** · 05-09-2004, 06:52 AM

Well after much searching I found this tutorial again to see if the answer to "How to fit the upper to lower" was there. I got the video on how to make mocs, but I still have trouble. Can you explain????? Maybe I can figure out what I am doing wrong.

10-23-2003, 09:40 AM	#42 (permalink)
FancyStar What Will Be Will Be Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cherokee,NC USA Posts: 580	Ok Now that you got the supplies you want together how do you make an accurate moc pattern? __________________ Before you attempt to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you! Why do some people bother breathing when you know their brain isn't getting the oxygen?

01-02-2004, 02:46 AM	#46 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	Tukisha My apology, I have been really busy and haven't started on the pair of mocs I was going to make and take pics of for this thread. I should be back at it within the next few weeks. C_Rock Nice work! That video is a very good instructional aid. I do not agree with everything they tell folks to do in it, but all in all I would recommend it to folks, just as I would tell folks with average dawgs that Crazy Crows patterns can work well too. Though neither are perfect, but for a first time mocs maker any help is better than none. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

01-08-2004, 03:05 AM	#49 (permalink)
C_Rock77 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 88	I've never made any with rawhide soles. I'd like to try it, sometime. White Latigo has worked really well for me in the past. Not to mention I have a boat load of it at home. Some Leather tannery was selling "scraps" at a powwow I went to. These "scraps" were about 2 ft wide at their widest and were pretty long. It was the stuff they couldn't use to cut straps, I guess. It looks like the pieces that were cut off to square up the hides before they start cutting straps. It's perfectly fine to cut soles from. Anyone need some good white Latigo for soles? I'll sell u some ;). Last edited by C_Rock77; 02-01-2004 at 12:02 PM.

01-31-2004, 08:51 PM	#50 (permalink)
MAROONDANCER gawk where's the gun Gawk Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cardboard box on the street corner Posts: 247	Pards: sorry I've been kinda MIA the last few weeks . I've been beading my new moccs. My parents asked me what I needed left in my regalia and they got me a Moccisins kit from crazy crow with the latigo soles . Right now I'm finishing up beading my first mocc and i still haveone more left to go. the only thing I've found so far is that latigo sucks to work with . I know I'll get allot of crap for this but I've worked with rawhide before and latigo sucks. I've broken 2 exacto-knives and have a real nice cut on my index finger to show for it, but hey! just show's I'm doing something instead of sitting around all day, i am feeling kinda weak sooo I'll saygoood buhhfaint's from lack of blood __________________ 'i believe I can fly' Rob Young

02-01-2004, 11:04 AM	#52 (permalink)
MAROONDANCER gawk where's the gun Gawk Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cardboard box on the street corner Posts: 247	Pard: 1. I didn't buy the kit. 2. i'm going to make another set later 3. i'm only learning , this is the best way to learn, make it using the kit then move on to make the better pair 4.By the way my mother didn't buy me commercial tanned cowhide. she got me the gold buckskin. 5. the stuff I got with the kit is really easy to bead on it's like butter. Rob young __________________ 'i believe I can fly' Rob Young

10-20-2003, 02:41 PM	#41 (permalink)
Donna D Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Georgia Posts: 86	We had trouble with latigo disintegrating after it got wet and the stitches breaking loose. Pig skin works better for soles and it lasts a really long time!

10-24-2003, 04:41 PM	#43 (permalink)
Czechy wrapped in ribbonwork! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Here....for now Posts: 781	Gah, I came in late on this subject! Sorry..... I've made mocs with both latigo and rawhide soles. I actually prefer the rawhide since I have bad luck ordering latigo leather. For some reason I seem to get the tough, dense latigo pieces which don't hold my stitches. For soles, I get buffalo rawhide from a guy in Hot Springs, SD. About $12 a piece. Larry Belitz is his name. He has an online catalog of rawhide and bison products including deer braintan. Reasonable prices too. Can't remember the web address....but a search on bison products might unearth it for ya. For the thinner awls, Crazy Crow sells them. You have to get the one with the antler handle. Not the scratch awl. For thread to sew the soles on, I use a strong twisted thread that is used to string the heavy squash blossom necklaces on. I love this stuff but have no idea what its called or where to get more of it. In sewing the soles on, you don't want to use knots as these irritate your feet and are often not very securely tied. Do this instead. In beginning a new thread, leave a 1" tail. Sew over the tail when you make your next few stitches. When ending a thread, just use your needle to tuck the tail back through the last few stitches. You may want to weave the tail back and forth once or twice for extra security. But I'm getting ahead of the game here..... bad girl! :devil :devil

12-31-2003, 04:27 PM	#44 (permalink)
tukisha Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23	waiting patiently for this tutorial to continue.

01-02-2004, 01:43 AM	#45 (permalink)
C_Rock77 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 88	For all of you folks that are waiting patiently (and not so patiently) for this tutorial to continue and finish..... Have you heard of the video produced by Full Circle Videos? They have a video on how to construct the Plains hard-sole mocs with a few variations. They cover material selection, pattern making, and construction of the actual shoes. It's a GREAT video and features some of the best moccasin makers in the country! Mike Kostelnik, who writes for Whispering Wind and has made upwards of 80 prs of mocs, appears on the video. I was able to make a well-fitting and good-looking pair of mocs with the help of this video. For uppers, I have have good luck with a product that Crazy Crow Trading Post has carried in the past. It is a "German Tanned" buckskin. They have it in a natural and a white color. It's not quite as soft as brain-tanned, but for the difference in price, I can't see the added cost of brain-tanned. This stuff is really good.

01-02-2004, 02:53 AM	#47 (permalink)
C_Rock77 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 88	THX PB..... I agree with you on the vid. I can't point out any specifics about that video that I DON'T agree with. However, it will help you to make a wearable pair of mocs 1st time out of the barrell. Like most information, you pull the things you find helpful and leave the things you don't......

01-07-2004, 10:29 PM	#48 (permalink)
Czechy wrapped in ribbonwork! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Here....for now Posts: 781	I like that video too. It is great for those wanting to learn to make mocs with latigo or harness leather soles. My only complaint is that there is no mention of how to work with rawhide soles. There are a couple things that have to be done differently. Maybe in the next edition.....

01-31-2004, 11:59 PM	#51 (permalink)
C_Rock77 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 88	Buying the Crazy Crow kit was your first mistake. CCTP has some good materials, but the materials in the kits aren't usually the best. The buckskin (or cowhide) they sell you in the kits sucks. Commercial tan is HARD to bead on, to say the least. For your next pair, I'd suggest trying out their German Tan leather. It's as close to brain-tan as you can get without paying through the nose! It's not as soft as brain-tan, but it's close enough for the money. I've seen the latigo CCTP uses for soles, and I must admit, yes, it sucks. It's more like belt leather than what I'd consider latigo. The latigo I've used was great. It's a white color and VERY stiff. I'd say it's second only to rawhide.

02-01-2004, 11:59 AM	#53 (permalink)
C_Rock77 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 88	I bought kits, too when I got started. You just usually don't get as much for your money. As for their gold buckskin being like butter..... I used to think that.....until I did some beadwork on brain-tan. Once you go brain-tanned, you'll never go back to commercial tan! I PROMISE you! Up until I got my hands on some german or brain-tanned, I was like, "WHY would you want to pay these outrageous prices for brain-tanned leather?!" Get a sample of their german-tanned, or some brain tanned. Try beading on it. It's SO much easier to get a needle through. I've beaded on their gold buckskin, before. I'm telling you, there's NO comparison! You'll see. Call up a place that brain tans and get a sample of their leather. You can pretty much bead almost twice as fast with better results on brain-tanned. BTW, If you'd be interested, I'll cut you a set of white latigo soles from my stash for around $10. It's a lot better than the stuff I've gotten from CCTP. I'm not bad-mouthing CCTP. I buy a lot of their stuff, and Rex Reddick is a good guy. It's just that some things they carry are much better than others, and there's no way to know until you get it. A piece of advice.... Try to find some good knife-edged shears (scissors) to cut your leather with. They're stout enough and sharp enough to cut latigo, and you won't run the risk of slicing your finger. I haven't had any problems cutting leather (latigo or otherwise) with scissors. I just find it easier. X-Acto knives are nice, but one slip, and you ruin your piece or slice a finger. Last edited by C_Rock77; 02-01-2004 at 12:06 PM.

02-01-2004, 06:55 PM	#54 (permalink)
MAROONDANCER gawk where's the gun Gawk Join Date: May 2003 Location: Cardboard box on the street corner Posts: 247	Pard: okay I'll admit , I lose. I tried to sew one of the moccs and as soon as I turned it inside out most of the beadwork popped off, so that sucked , I had to got back through and sew all the little edges up agian . Rob young __________________ 'i believe I can fly' Rob Young

02-02-2004, 08:34 PM	#56 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,618	well you are'nt supposed to go all the way through the hide and sometimes if they are'nt stitched into enough of the hide, the threads will pop back through the hide and hang in one big beadwork line. __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

05-09-2004, 06:52 AM	#57 (permalink)
Yelloweyes PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Chino, Calif Posts: 1,601	Well after much searching I found this tutorial again to see if the answer to "How to fit the upper to lower" was there. I got the video on how to make mocs, but I still have trouble. Can you explain????? Maybe I can figure out what I am doing wrong.

05-09-2004, 02:38 PM	#58 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810