black shawl wraps

sutton's dad · 07-02-2003, 08:49 PM

i was wondering if these black shawl wraps have been discussed before on this site. i looked for them in other posts, but i didn't see anything about them. i've asked many time about the meanings behind them, and who is able to wear them. i've gotten many different answers. i've heard that they are only worn by particular society members, and i've also heard that anyone can wear them. i've seen a lot of hobbyist wearing these wraps, and every once in a while i'll see a native wearing one, but that is rare. i think they look really cool, so i figured i'd ask. i'm not really planning on having one. i just thought i'd see if i could find out some information. thanks.

CHEROSAGE · 07-03-2003, 02:18 AM

I believe this is a tradition of the Comanches. I haven't seen anyother Indian people wear th e shawl wrap as a part of their suit. You may want to talk to some elder Comanches.

luvstraightdancrs · 07-03-2003, 10:55 AM

It is my understanding that it is a Kiowa and Comanche thing and society realted. My son in law wears one, he's Kiowa and gets upset seing just anyone wear one.

Talk to the Comanche and Kiowa before you try it out.

powwowbum49 · 07-03-2003, 04:30 PM

From what I have been taught, among the Kiowa, the shawl wrap represents a physical connection to ones wife and family. As for wearing one, that varies from family to family in my experience. Some families limit it's wearing to elder members of the family while other have no qualms about when one can wear it, even allowing small children to wear them. As Singerdad mentioned the shawl wrap is also part of the formal clothing of the Kiowa gourd dancer, though I do not think it is limited to one particular clan, since I have seen members of every clan using them. The society he mentioned may vary well require it's member to wear the wrap as formal dress...it would not surprise me.

I know little to nothing about the use of the wrap among the Comanche and will leave that for another to address.

As Singerdad also said, it is good that you ask!

sutton's dad · 07-03-2003, 04:34 PM

thanks a lot folks for your input.

scottlollar · 07-03-2003, 11:16 PM

I thought the black shawl wrap was only worn by members of the Kiowa Black Aprons society. I guess, in a way, similar to the Black Leggings. At least that is what I was told, but who knows - that may have been wrong.

Scott

powwowbum49 · 07-04-2003, 02:40 AM

Sorry Scott I have never heard of that society, maybe I have just been left out?

Defthong · 07-04-2003, 02:44 AM

I have seen children wear shaws...is this wrong or are we mearly talking about black shaws?

scottlollar · 07-04-2003, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by powwowbum49
Sorry Scott I have never heard of that society, maybe I have just been left out?

Hey, maybe, I was given wrong info. Come to think of it, I don't remember where I heard that. But, like with the Black Leggins, I felt it safer not to wear something that could have been associated with a Society.
I'm not a Straight dancer, anyway. And I'm pretty sure I've never seen the black shawl on anyone but a Straight dancer...

Here's a question then: Why are the shawls black? I've never seen one worn in that way in any other color. If they aren't really significant of something specific, why are they only black?
Hmmm, now I'm really curious. Next weekend I'm a gonna have to ask someone... :) Wish me luck.

Scott

CHEROSAGE · 07-04-2003, 03:58 AM

Scott, if you go to Carniege you can find out and share the info. I know that the Black leggins Society does wear the black shawl wrap. I don't recall if these Gentlemen still wear it when they dance out side of the Gourd dance. I have seen Charlie Chibitty wear one and I think I've seen Woogie Watchaticker(Sp)(sorry) along with others. These Gentlemen were Comanches. I of course in Lawton/Anadarko area I don't know if anyone is of only one particular Tribe, they could have been mixed.

I wouldn't wear something that wasn't given to me or if I didn't have the rights to wear it.

Good luck, Scott. by the way, see you in McAllen again.

Str8Dancer49 · 07-04-2003, 05:25 AM

Hey - from a new poster/long time lurker & reader of these boards, I'd just reiterate what Cherosage said - Don't wear one if you don't have permission to do so.

Basically, I've only seen Kiowas wear them if they were members of TonKonGat - the Black Legs/Leggins Society. This is a highly respected veterans society and their symbols - the waist shawl, Ghoulayee's red cape, the bonnets, the Tipi with Battle Paintings - are guarded and cared for very deeply.

For Comanche folks, that waist shawl is called a Pitskwinawi (closest I could get to the Comanche pronunciation!). From what I've been told by Comanche folks, these were origianlly a society emblem of the Tuuwii or Black Knife society, which has been revived in the past couple of decades, primarily under the Sovo family's leadership. In a battle long ago, these warriors went up against Mexican soldiers protecting a town. They took the dark steel swords of the soldiers, and the black shawls of the women, and used them as society emblems. The name Tuuwii refers to these swords, but also has multiple other meanings, especially in reference to the beaks of ravens - a patron animal of the society's warriors - and to the wings of the red-wing blackbird - which look like blood-stained black knives. The Battle Dresses worn by the female assistants in the Tuuwii are black w/ red sleeves and gussetts and also make reference to the red-winged black bird (Kiowa Battle Dresses are dark blue and red). In that battle where these Comanche warriors claimed these trophies, their Kiowa allies, including Ghoulayee, also got black shawls and Ghoulayee ripped the red cape from an officers neck while pushing his face away with his bloodied bare hand. Therefore, people will ask if you have the right to wear one.

However, and this is where this issue becomes tricky, the pitskwinawi has become a kind of symbol of "Comancheness" and is worn by many Comanches who aren't in Tuuwii. Some Comanche families who have dressed other NDNs and even some non-NDNs in Comanche clothes have given those people permission to wear the shawl. Jerry Harjo and Justin Yerby are two Straight Dancers who come to mind in this regard - both are NDNs, but from southeastern tribes - but both have been given permission to wear that shawl by particular Comanche families.

Interestingly, a handful of Ponca folks who I've talked to, especially those involved with Helushka, tend to view that shawl as an emblem of the Comanch War Dance Society. In theory, that's not the case, but in practice, there's a lot of overlap as men can be in more than one society if they can manage all those responsibilities. The current head man for the Comanche War Dance Society has served as the camp crier for the Tuuwii, so the origin of this confusion is understandable.

As for children wearing those shawls - I've seen it before, but wearing one is a responsibility, and one that many kids - or adults for that matter - don't understand.

P. S. - I'm from southeastern tribes, but was dressed in Comanche clothes over 10 years ago, including a pitskwinawi. Just last weekend, an elder Comanche lady asked me who gave me permission to wear it - so you can see that it's not something that folks take lightly. I've even seen a Comanche guy tell a hobbyist point blank to go take his shawl off since he didn't have the right or permission to wear one.

**walela49** · 07-04-2003, 11:53 AM

Hi brother!:Wave
Figger'd you couldn't resist this one!:clap:

CHEROSAGE · 07-05-2003, 02:50 AM

Thanks Str8D'49,

There was a lot of great info. that I wasn't aware of and some of it I was not sure of. I have family in Comanche Co. and have developed many friends of Kiowa, Comanche, and Ft. Sill Apaches(and other area Apaches). I have danced and sang in the Comanche Co. area. It is always easy down there to do things right because everyone knows and we just do what is right.

I'm not of these Tribes but have been given the Rights to do the things I do at many dances. God thanks to my family and friends for all they have given to me and helped me.

Again, Thanks for the Info.

Defthong · 07-05-2003, 03:45 AM

really great info !!!

sutton's dad · 07-07-2003, 12:05 AM

thanks again for all the great info. it has clarified some of the information that i had been given in the past.

rwgirl · 07-07-2003, 09:40 PM

I have lived in the Mt. Scott area in Oklahoma for 20 years and my children are Comanche. My in-laws performed the Tu-Wee dance in Washington D.C. in 1976 under the direction of the late Joe Attocknie. The black shawl is very sacred to the Comanches and they have no qualms about telling you to take it off if you don't know why you are wearing it.
It's always best to leave something like that alone. Like I have always said on here, if you don't already know about something...then it's not meant for you. If you were meant to wear one of these symbols on your regalia, someone would have given you that right. Otherwise, just don't. You could really offend some family, and then get offended yourself when they call you on it.

07-02-2003, 08:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
sutton's dad Junior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 144	black shawl wraps i was wondering if these black shawl wraps have been discussed before on this site. i looked for them in other posts, but i didn't see anything about them. i've asked many time about the meanings behind them, and who is able to wear them. i've gotten many different answers. i've heard that they are only worn by particular society members, and i've also heard that anyone can wear them. i've seen a lot of hobbyist wearing these wraps, and every once in a while i'll see a native wearing one, but that is rare. i think they look really cool, so i figured i'd ask. i'm not really planning on having one. i just thought i'd see if i could find out some information. thanks.

07-03-2003, 02:18 AM	#2 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,342	I believe this is a tradition of the Comanches. I haven't seen anyother Indian people wear th e shawl wrap as a part of their suit. You may want to talk to some elder Comanches. __________________ BOB

07-03-2003, 04:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 812	From what I have been taught, among the Kiowa, the shawl wrap represents a physical connection to ones wife and family. As for wearing one, that varies from family to family in my experience. Some families limit it's wearing to elder members of the family while other have no qualms about when one can wear it, even allowing small children to wear them. As Singerdad mentioned the shawl wrap is also part of the formal clothing of the Kiowa gourd dancer, though I do not think it is limited to one particular clan, since I have seen members of every clan using them. The society he mentioned may vary well require it's member to wear the wrap as formal dress...it would not surprise me. I know little to nothing about the use of the wrap among the Comanche and will leave that for another to address. As Singerdad also said, it is good that you ask! __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more. Last edited by powwowbum49; 07-03-2003 at 04:39 PM.

07-04-2003, 02:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 812	Sorry Scott I have never heard of that society, maybe I have just been left out? __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

07-04-2003, 02:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
Defthong Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: santa barbara Posts: 28	shaws I have seen children wear shaws...is this wrong or are we mearly talking about black shaws?

07-03-2003, 10:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
luvstraightdancrs Senior Dancer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern Straight country Posts: 662	It is my understanding that it is a Kiowa and Comanche thing and society realted. My son in law wears one, he's Kiowa and gets upset seing just anyone wear one. Talk to the Comanche and Kiowa before you try it out.

07-03-2003, 04:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
sutton's dad Junior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 144	thanks a lot folks for your input.

07-03-2003, 11:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
scottlollar Father of Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 97	I thought the black shawl wrap was only worn by members of the Kiowa Black Aprons society. I guess, in a way, similar to the Black Leggings. At least that is what I was told, but who knows - that may have been wrong. Scott

07-04-2003, 03:58 AM	#10 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,342	Scott, if you go to Carniege you can find out and share the info. I know that the Black leggins Society does wear the black shawl wrap. I don't recall if these Gentlemen still wear it when they dance out side of the Gourd dance. I have seen Charlie Chibitty wear one and I think I've seen Woogie Watchaticker(Sp)(sorry) along with others. These Gentlemen were Comanches. I of course in Lawton/Anadarko area I don't know if anyone is of only one particular Tribe, they could have been mixed. I wouldn't wear something that wasn't given to me or if I didn't have the rights to wear it. Good luck, Scott. by the way, see you in McAllen again. __________________ BOB

07-04-2003, 05:25 AM	#11 (permalink)
Str8Dancer49 Some Kinda Monster Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: In the 505 Posts: 221	Hey - from a new poster/long time lurker & reader of these boards, I'd just reiterate what Cherosage said - Don't wear one if you don't have permission to do so. Basically, I've only seen Kiowas wear them if they were members of TonKonGat - the Black Legs/Leggins Society. This is a highly respected veterans society and their symbols - the waist shawl, Ghoulayee's red cape, the bonnets, the Tipi with Battle Paintings - are guarded and cared for very deeply. For Comanche folks, that waist shawl is called a Pitskwinawi (closest I could get to the Comanche pronunciation!). From what I've been told by Comanche folks, these were origianlly a society emblem of the Tuuwii or Black Knife society, which has been revived in the past couple of decades, primarily under the Sovo family's leadership. In a battle long ago, these warriors went up against Mexican soldiers protecting a town. They took the dark steel swords of the soldiers, and the black shawls of the women, and used them as society emblems. The name Tuuwii refers to these swords, but also has multiple other meanings, especially in reference to the beaks of ravens - a patron animal of the society's warriors - and to the wings of the red-wing blackbird - which look like blood-stained black knives. The Battle Dresses worn by the female assistants in the Tuuwii are black w/ red sleeves and gussetts and also make reference to the red-winged black bird (Kiowa Battle Dresses are dark blue and red). In that battle where these Comanche warriors claimed these trophies, their Kiowa allies, including Ghoulayee, also got black shawls and Ghoulayee ripped the red cape from an officers neck while pushing his face away with his bloodied bare hand. Therefore, people will ask if you have the right to wear one. However, and this is where this issue becomes tricky, the pitskwinawi has become a kind of symbol of "Comancheness" and is worn by many Comanches who aren't in Tuuwii. Some Comanche families who have dressed other NDNs and even some non-NDNs in Comanche clothes have given those people permission to wear the shawl. Jerry Harjo and Justin Yerby are two Straight Dancers who come to mind in this regard - both are NDNs, but from southeastern tribes - but both have been given permission to wear that shawl by particular Comanche families. Interestingly, a handful of Ponca folks who I've talked to, especially those involved with Helushka, tend to view that shawl as an emblem of the Comanch War Dance Society. In theory, that's not the case, but in practice, there's a lot of overlap as men can be in more than one society if they can manage all those responsibilities. The current head man for the Comanche War Dance Society has served as the camp crier for the Tuuwii, so the origin of this confusion is understandable. As for children wearing those shawls - I've seen it before, but wearing one is a responsibility, and one that many kids - or adults for that matter - don't understand. P. S. - I'm from southeastern tribes, but was dressed in Comanche clothes over 10 years ago, including a pitskwinawi. Just last weekend, an elder Comanche lady asked me who gave me permission to wear it - so you can see that it's not something that folks take lightly. I've even seen a Comanche guy tell a hobbyist point blank to go take his shawl off since he didn't have the right or permission to wear one.

07-04-2003, 11:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
walela49 the legal plumes lady! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: www.walela49.com Posts: 1,156	Str8Dancer49 Hi brother!:Wave Figger'd you couldn't resist this one!:clap: __________________ See my trading post ads See my photo gallery See walela49's myspace page

07-05-2003, 02:50 AM	#13 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,342	Thanks Str8D'49, There was a lot of great info. that I wasn't aware of and some of it I was not sure of. I have family in Comanche Co. and have developed many friends of Kiowa, Comanche, and Ft. Sill Apaches(and other area Apaches). I have danced and sang in the Comanche Co. area. It is always easy down there to do things right because everyone knows and we just do what is right. I'm not of these Tribes but have been given the Rights to do the things I do at many dances. God thanks to my family and friends for all they have given to me and helped me. Again, Thanks for the Info. __________________ BOB

07-05-2003, 03:45 AM	#14 (permalink)
Defthong Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: santa barbara Posts: 28	thank you..Str8Dancer49 really great info !!!

07-07-2003, 12:05 AM	#15 (permalink)
sutton's dad Junior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 144	thanks again for all the great info. it has clarified some of the information that i had been given in the past.

07-07-2003, 09:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
rwgirl Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 45	I have lived in the Mt. Scott area in Oklahoma for 20 years and my children are Comanche. My in-laws performed the Tu-Wee dance in Washington D.C. in 1976 under the direction of the late Joe Attocknie. The black shawl is very sacred to the Comanches and they have no qualms about telling you to take it off if you don't know why you are wearing it. It's always best to leave something like that alone. Like I have always said on here, if you don't already know about something...then it's not meant for you. If you were meant to wear one of these symbols on your regalia, someone would have given you that right. Otherwise, just don't. You could really offend some family, and then get offended yourself when they call you on it.