asking for permission, to participate in a powwow - Page 2

Thobias · 09-24-2007, 01:16 AM

Hi! our computer got struck with a virus, anyway, im back again,
just want to say im not a hater, and i dont kick rocks
i did not start this thread , to argue , thats why a left a private message to tju510?!,
im very sorry if the way i argued with you offended you ,
i offer you my sincere apology, i dont know you, i wasnt passing judgement, just arguing, im sorry though
if you live in Oakland,i would think you could come to the next years Stanford powow, im going there, and if you would like to meet up just let me, know, im a good guy, i think you are one too,
i can probably learn one or two things from you
Thank you

MtnLiving · 09-27-2007, 06:07 PM

This is such a touchy subject and I'm not exactily sure why. It's probably from having been born looking white and growing up in the white culture. It's like african americans....I could never say the N word to them but they can call each other that.

...and it wouldn't, seemingly, matter if I wanted to embrace any supposed african american heritage I might possess...or would it?

Does it matter if I want to possibly at some participate in a powwow and I am a small part of the native american heritage? Or would my white heritage get in the way? I'm honestly asking. No sugar coating just give it to me straight.

I don't know that I would ever want to participate in a public powwow but I do want to initiate private ceremonies with my family for a connection. I would like to be able to do so without feeling guilty from full blooded native americans telling me it's wrong for some reason. I hope that doesn't happen but if it does, I am willing to try and learn from it.

For clarification, so there's no "oh no, here comes another one", I don't expect to just take the knowledge of my heritage, however scant it may be, and capitalize on it for money or make fun of it in any manner.

Oh boy, perhaps I should have picked a subject to participate in with less scandal for my first time.

they_drag_him · 10-03-2007, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thobias

Hi! our computer got struck with a virus, anyway, im back again,
just want to say im not a hater, and i dont kick rocks
i did not start this thread , to argue , thats why a left a private message to tju510?!,
im very sorry if the way i argued with you offended you ,
i offer you my sincere apology, i dont know you, i wasnt passing judgement, just arguing, im sorry though
if you live in Oakland,i would think you could come to the next years Stanford powow, im going there, and if you would like to meet up just let me, know, im a good guy, i think you are one too,
i can probably learn one or two things from you
Thank you

Huntington Park? I was just there on Pacific Ave. I used to live in Maywood, CA. You must stick out like a sore thumb for everyone is brown and speaks Spanish. I'm thinking that you know that there is an Indian Revival Center in Bell Gardens, CA. You can meet them and enrich your soul. The church is on Gage Avenue close to Eastern Avenue.

tsuj510 · 10-03-2007, 02:46 AM

Excellent advice, they_drag_him!

EricEagle · 10-14-2007, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah

Hello,
You have seemed to have picked a dance category that is thought of very strongly in NDN country especially to the North

There is a reason it is called Northern Traditional it has evolved from War Dances and other forms of Warrior Dances of Northern Tribes
The men that dance this dance are highly thought of among their "tribes"
They are carrying on Traditions that stretch back a very long ways in time!

I guess my first question is Why Do you want to try this dance???
The men that dance this form of dance typically start when they are very young and I mean younggg

It takes alot of work to gather the materials together such as the Feathers which should be eagle
But since you are non-ndn you cant carry those by law
The Bustle would take at least 2 eagles to make it look good

Then there is the Roach which should be constructed by someone that has knowledge for it to look good enough to wear

Then there is the Bead-work which can take hundreds of man hours to construct

Usually a man has Family and uncles and Grandfathers that he can go to and ask for there help to construct his dance clothes

But in your case you have yourself
I want you to understand the task you have decided to tackle

Then there is this:
This is a Traditional Dance of alot of Tribes to the North....

Too often people come to Powwows and see the pretty clothes and to them the simple steps and say to them-selfs
"Hey I could do that"! That looks easy and they go home and read some books on how to do it and then they sit down and construct an "outfit" put it on and go to a local powwow and dance.
NO one says anything bad to them so they think hey I can do this and and they do it again till they get tired of it and the clothes go in the closet and eventually the infatuation wears off

But to the Northern Tribes this is not an Infatuation this is culture and There ways.

I wanted to be a Big League Baseball Player and I even have the pants and the Bat and the cool Hat
But I dont have the Skill and Talent to be a Big League Ballplayer...
So I buy a ticket and support my team and Cheer when they win and groan when they lose and I go home Happy knowing I supported them

Be happy you know your own Culture! There are alot of people in this country that dont and are endlessly searching for it.
You are the Fortunate one

I vote no

And no big league ball player was born great, they attained that greatness through years of practice, and study, and hard work. I'm not indian, but I know that it takes years of study, tedious work, and practice to dance, and do it correctly. Obviously what I say doesn't really matter, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if his heart is telling him to dance, let him dance, once he proves that he loves it enough to go through the trials of putting an outfit together. Wanting to take part in someone else's culture, and learn it, and enjoy it, isn't a crime. You're assuming he'll go home, ''read some books'' throw together an outfit, and go to a powwow and disgrace your culture. Stop assuming the worst in people. If a white man puts together his own outfit, to the ''T'', exactly the way it should be, and dances, respectfully, what's wrong with that?

they_drag_him · 10-15-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricEagle

Stop assuming the worst in people. If a white man puts together his own outfit, to the ''T'', exactly the way it should be, and dances, respectfully, what's wrong with that?

This whiteman could be stealing a family design or the design may be nontraditional. Will this whiteman bead his own beadwork or will he go to somebody who is bonafide?

tsuj510 · 10-15-2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricEagle

And no big league ball player was born great, they attained that greatness through years of practice, and study, and hard work. I'm not indian, but I know that it takes years of study, tedious work, and practice to dance, and do it correctly. Obviously what I say doesn't really matter, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if his heart is telling him to dance, let him dance, once he proves that he loves it enough to go through the trials of putting an outfit together. Wanting to take part in someone else's culture, and learn it, and enjoy it, isn't a crime. You're assuming he'll go home, ''read some books'' throw together an outfit, and go to a powwow and disgrace your culture. Stop assuming the worst in people. If a white man puts together his own outfit, to the ''T'', exactly the way it should be, and dances, respectfully, what's wrong with that?

I'm not indian, but I know that it takes years of study, tedious work, and practice to dance, and do it correctly

No; this cannot be done correctly by a Non-Native.

Our relations fought and died in order to pass along these traditions. Its not right for outsiders to intrude into our ways. Creator gave your People their own ways and I urge you to research and do those ways instead of ours.

Usdigvhi · 10-15-2007, 10:16 PM

I vote no. I am native american, very much mixed blood, but all but one of my native "bloodlines" raised their children in white culture. This native bloodline was my grandma, the problem is grew up in foster care in the backwoods of kentucky. She grew up around natives...but not ones that practiced traditions, other than farming and the love/preservation of the land. The beliefs were passed down in my family, no traditions, and unfortunately i still don't know exactly who my grandmothers biological family so i can't "re-learn" my own culture.

Where i'm going with this is seeing as i'm the first generation to start going to powwows, and being a blonde haired blue eyed mixed blood, i surely don't know everything and make embarassing "rude" mistakes from time to time. When that happens, ive run into issues of my heritage being "questioned" and when i run into this...if i were to say "No i'm not native"..i think the outcome would have been "You need to leave" instead of...."ok let me teach you". I'm definitely not saying this is bad...because its not. its this way to preserve culture.

let me put it in the aspect of martial arts. Most US martial arts (the standard karate and tai kwon do (sp?)) are nothing like the original martial arts in asia. Please remember the original martial arts were developed to assist in meditation...so a religious reason. So when "white people" were allowed to learn some martial arts, they came back to the US and started teaching it here to other white people who eventually opened their own school with their own interpretation. pretty soon...the line keeps on going and just like the kids game of telephone...what comes out at the end is not the same as what was put into it.

Its the same with native culture. if non-natives are allowed in...our culture will end up like americanized karate: nothing like the original.

Thobias · 10-17-2007, 06:16 PM

ive been thinking, i know that im going the right way, i have my mentor,whatever he says i will do, i think that its true that if to many white people come and participate in the powwow it wouldnt be a powwow in the end, and that worries me, when i went to the thunder and lightning , my friend invited me to dance with him and his people, i turned it downed at first,(i thought i would intrude) and he got a little upset, see something i thought was right for me to do, was wrong, we talked about it , and i learned, and i will continue learning , so second time around i went and i walked/danced in the inter tribal with him, i felt honored
anyway, im doing this the right way and if its not ment to be its not, in the end i have a great friend
also, there was actually a pakistani guy dancing mens southern cloth, a horrible thought for you nay sayers, but i see your point though, take care

hobbs49 · 10-17-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thobias

also, there was actually a pakistani guy dancing mens southern cloth, a horrible thought for you nay sayers, but i see your point though, take care

Well the pakistani guy doesn't really surprise me. After all, pakistan is right there next to india. He probably knows all the indian dances.

Please forgive me, that was so wrong.

tsuj510 · 10-18-2007, 06:33 PM

I think I have a solution to the issue at hand.

I work near a software company called Second Life which allows users to create virtual identities.

That way, you NONS can go play Indian withut harming any actual Indians or our lifeways.

Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination.

Knock yerself out!

Thobias · 10-20-2007, 10:28 PM

im a swede, and you are marrying a swede, means your kids will be half nons!?

ill guess it will be to flip the coin on what tradition they should adopt no?
also, thanks alot for the website, i already created myself,
but i think you know this website since you really want to be a swede,

dont tell me you went blonde, and that you pet is a polar bear

**Josiah** · 10-23-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricEagle

And no big league ball player was born great, they attained that greatness through years of practice, and study, and hard work. I'm not indian, but I know that it takes years of study, tedious work, and practice to dance, and do it correctly. Obviously what I say doesn't really matter, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if his heart is telling him to dance, let him dance, once he proves that he loves it enough to go through the trials of putting an outfit together. Wanting to take part in someone else's culture, and learn it, and enjoy it, isn't a crime. You're assuming he'll go home, ''read some books'' throw together an outfit, and go to a powwow and disgrace your culture. Stop assuming the worst in people. If a white man puts together his own outfit, to the ''T'', exactly the way it should be, and dances, respectfully, what's wrong with that?

I know a few that have done that and dance to a T
And still dont know things
By the way they had a mentor that brought them into the arena and dressed them and let it be known
But still things go right over there head!
Same analogy as trying to describe the color blue to a blind man
And they get the looks and the grumbles
Not everybody will be happy about it and accept you at face value
Know that
But they are not dressed out as a traditional dancer!

09-24-2007, 01:16 AM	#21 (permalink)
Thobias Thobias Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Huntingtonpark Posts: 21	away Hi! our computer got struck with a virus, anyway, im back again, just want to say im not a hater, and i dont kick rocks i did not start this thread , to argue , thats why a left a private message to tju510?!, im very sorry if the way i argued with you offended you , i offer you my sincere apology, i dont know you, i wasnt passing judgement, just arguing, im sorry though if you live in Oakland,i would think you could come to the next years Stanford powow, im going there, and if you would like to meet up just let me, know, im a good guy, i think you are one too, i can probably learn one or two things from you Thank you

10-15-2007, 10:16 PM	#28 (permalink)
Usdigvhi Little Wildcat Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 374	I vote no. I am native american, very much mixed blood, but all but one of my native "bloodlines" raised their children in white culture. This native bloodline was my grandma, the problem is grew up in foster care in the backwoods of kentucky. She grew up around natives...but not ones that practiced traditions, other than farming and the love/preservation of the land. The beliefs were passed down in my family, no traditions, and unfortunately i still don't know exactly who my grandmothers biological family so i can't "re-learn" my own culture. Where i'm going with this is seeing as i'm the first generation to start going to powwows, and being a blonde haired blue eyed mixed blood, i surely don't know everything and make embarassing "rude" mistakes from time to time. When that happens, ive run into issues of my heritage being "questioned" and when i run into this...if i were to say "No i'm not native"..i think the outcome would have been "You need to leave" instead of...."ok let me teach you". I'm definitely not saying this is bad...because its not. its this way to preserve culture. let me put it in the aspect of martial arts. Most US martial arts (the standard karate and tai kwon do (sp?)) are nothing like the original martial arts in asia. Please remember the original martial arts were developed to assist in meditation...so a religious reason. So when "white people" were allowed to learn some martial arts, they came back to the US and started teaching it here to other white people who eventually opened their own school with their own interpretation. pretty soon...the line keeps on going and just like the kids game of telephone...what comes out at the end is not the same as what was put into it. Its the same with native culture. if non-natives are allowed in...our culture will end up like americanized karate: nothing like the original. __________________ "So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." -Tecumseh

10-20-2007, 10:28 PM	#32 (permalink)
Thobias Thobias Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Huntingtonpark Posts: 21	half NON im a swede, and you are marrying a swede, means your kids will be half nons!? ill guess it will be to flip the coin on what tradition they should adopt no? also, thanks alot for the website, i already created myself, but i think you know this website since you really want to be a swede, dont tell me you went blonde, and that you pet is a polar bear Last edited by Thobias; 10-21-2007 at 06:42 PM.

09-27-2007, 06:07 PM	#22 (permalink)
MtnLiving Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: May 2007 Location: SW Montana Posts: 1	This is such a touchy subject and I'm not exactily sure why. It's probably from having been born looking white and growing up in the white culture. It's like african americans....I could never say the N word to them but they can call each other that. ...and it wouldn't, seemingly, matter if I wanted to embrace any supposed african american heritage I might possess...or would it? Does it matter if I want to possibly at some participate in a powwow and I am a small part of the native american heritage? Or would my white heritage get in the way? I'm honestly asking. No sugar coating just give it to me straight. I don't know that I would ever want to participate in a public powwow but I do want to initiate private ceremonies with my family for a connection. I would like to be able to do so without feeling guilty from full blooded native americans telling me it's wrong for some reason. I hope that doesn't happen but if it does, I am willing to try and learn from it. For clarification, so there's no "oh no, here comes another one", I don't expect to just take the knowledge of my heritage, however scant it may be, and capitalize on it for money or make fun of it in any manner. Oh boy, perhaps I should have picked a subject to participate in with less scandal for my first time.

10-03-2007, 02:46 AM	#24 (permalink)
tsuj510 Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 420	Excellent advice, they_drag_him!

10-17-2007, 06:16 PM	#29 (permalink)
Thobias Thobias Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Huntingtonpark Posts: 21	ive been thinking, i know that im going the right way, i have my mentor,whatever he says i will do, i think that its true that if to many white people come and participate in the powwow it wouldnt be a powwow in the end, and that worries me, when i went to the thunder and lightning , my friend invited me to dance with him and his people, i turned it downed at first,(i thought i would intrude) and he got a little upset, see something i thought was right for me to do, was wrong, we talked about it , and i learned, and i will continue learning , so second time around i went and i walked/danced in the inter tribal with him, i felt honored anyway, im doing this the right way and if its not ment to be its not, in the end i have a great friend also, there was actually a pakistani guy dancing mens southern cloth, a horrible thought for you nay sayers, but i see your point though, take care

10-18-2007, 06:33 PM	#31 (permalink)
tsuj510 Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 420	I think I have a solution to the issue at hand. I work near a software company called Second Life which allows users to create virtual identities. That way, you NONS can go play Indian withut harming any actual Indians or our lifeways. Second Life: Your World. Your Imagination. Knock yerself out!