The origins of southern singing

contemptradish · 09-23-2002, 11:36 PM

i'm working on a paper for school where i have to discuss the songs sung at powwow. i've got the history of northern songs covered, but i still can't find discussion on southern singing.
can anyone help?
why do southern singers sing in a lower register?
when and how did the people first get these songs?
are there tribal stories and legends to go along with this?
does anyone know these or know where i can find out this information?

thanks in advance...

The_Ultimate_Warrior · 09-25-2002, 02:37 PM

Southern singin is supposed to be very calm and slow except for the fancy dance songs.
In the kiowas southern singing has been around for a long time.
Like the Gourd Dance. There was a man that was singing these songs that came to him when he was fasting.
For some reason after every song he heard this wolf cry out with a howl.
Thats where you get the yoooo at the end of the song.
And thats just one of the many stories you will hear in the kiowa community.
Also southern style was started for the people that couldn't sing northern.
Not every man can sing high. So back in the day they had to adjust the singing for the lower toned men and that one of the many stories on how the southern singing came about.

I tried to help you by what I was taught at the middle drum and from my grandparents and my kiowa elders.

The_Ultimate_Warrior.

:38: :38: :38:

Beth · 09-25-2002, 02:48 PM

I have heard tapes of southern singers as high as the northern.
Ponca songs were sung a lot higher but the voices have gotten lower over the years.

The_Ultimate_Warrior · 09-25-2002, 02:51 PM

That is true. Those old men could sing high and get that spirit there.

contemptradish · 09-25-2002, 07:05 PM

ahhh, now i get it! the indian reorganization act was really just to send all the indians who couldn't sing high to oklahoma!
haha.:)

southernsky · 09-25-2002, 09:17 PM

CrazyInDn · 09-26-2002, 05:44 AM

You probly have'nt heard the Southern Boys than!!!!!
Talk about taking it HIGH!!!!

The_Ultimate_Warrior · 09-26-2002, 03:40 PM

Southern Boyz is a little to high. Thats why they never win first too much. They kick it too high and not all of them can get up there. Just my bro kelly and his dad and anthony and ronald. The others are just faking. If they did sing lower they would be hard to beat. That is my opinion, and it doesn't mean its true though.

So if records is reading don't try and explain the whole singing concept to every one again.

travelingmocs · 09-27-2002, 11:36 AM

fffff

Sahnish · 09-28-2002, 11:10 AM

Sourthern and Northern are different in other ways than who sings the highest. The cut beats are different, in different places, different number, the starting singing soft and ending loud, having women as such a big part of the singing, etc etc. In my mind that is what makes sourthern and northern different. Where did that start??

Sahnish · 09-30-2002, 02:31 PM

Any good guesses as to when it started??

contemptradish · 10-09-2002, 10:46 AM

it is generally accepted that the two distinct styles of song and dance (northern and southern) developed in the 1850s and 60s, as reservation boundaries were being established. it forced a general shift of indian groups to both the north and the south, and, though based on the same warrior society dances, the two separate styles began to emerge.

Sahnish · 10-09-2002, 02:30 PM

First let me say that I am not attacking you or anything like that. I am however very interested in history, that sounds like something that was written in a book, mind sharing the title of that book. I guess I am wondering how putting Indians on rez's would make them change styles? How did they decide whether to sing northern or sourthern, I mean they sing sourthern style in WI?

TacO5000 · 10-20-2002, 09:38 PM

ok. well far as I know the southern sing came from the omaha tribe. and was given to the cheynne then was given to the kiowa who call it o-ho-ma and had there own logde. which was a misspronation of the omaha. the gourd dance was part of the kiowa sun dance. it was stopped because when the kiowa would get together around the fourth of july because of the summer solest was haulted because the us would send troops to kill the kiowa because it was the time when all kiowa band would get together. it was revived during the fiftys.
the drum that is used today in pow wows came from the sioux which was given to the omaha and so on and so forth. southering singing is original and northern sing has just came around not too long ago. two different styles but both the licks!!
round dance came from the southwestern tribes giving to the kiowa.

Gledanh Zhinga · 06-29-2008, 11:10 AM

Some of the prominent tribes who sing "Southern," at least war dance style, were Northern tribes in the pre-rez days. For example, the Kiowa had a Crow tribal connection, which still survives today. The Comanche had the Shoshone connection in the area of Wyoming. The Ponca and Pawnee were removed to the south from the northern Nebraska/South Dakota area. That the northerners sing high and the southerners sing low may be a matter of happenstance and slow evolution after the reservation period, as Contemptradish suggested, above. This is theory; it's difficult to nail this down with hard facts.

09-23-2002, 11:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
contemptradish Junior Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: B-town, IN Posts: 148	The origins of southern singing i'm working on a paper for school where i have to discuss the songs sung at powwow. i've got the history of northern songs covered, but i still can't find discussion on southern singing. can anyone help? why do southern singers sing in a lower register? when and how did the people first get these songs? are there tribal stories and legends to go along with this? does anyone know these or know where i can find out this information? thanks in advance... __________________ C-trad

09-25-2002, 02:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
The_Ultimate_Warrior Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: oklahoma Posts: 4	Maybe I can help. Southern singin is supposed to be very calm and slow except for the fancy dance songs. In the kiowas southern singing has been around for a long time. Like the Gourd Dance. There was a man that was singing these songs that came to him when he was fasting. For some reason after every song he heard this wolf cry out with a howl. Thats where you get the yoooo at the end of the song. And thats just one of the many stories you will hear in the kiowa community. Also southern style was started for the people that couldn't sing northern. Not every man can sing high. So back in the day they had to adjust the singing for the lower toned men and that one of the many stories on how the southern singing came about. I tried to help you by what I was taught at the middle drum and from my grandparents and my kiowa elders. The_Ultimate_Warrior. :38: :38: :38:

09-25-2002, 02:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
Beth Beth Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: over the rainbow Posts: 199	southern I have heard tapes of southern singers as high as the northern. Ponca songs were sung a lot higher but the voices have gotten lower over the years.

09-25-2002, 07:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
contemptradish Junior Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: B-town, IN Posts: 148	IRA ahhh, now i get it! the indian reorganization act was really just to send all the indians who couldn't sing high to oklahoma! haha.:) __________________ C-trad

09-25-2002, 09:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
southernsky Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: close to home USA Posts: 34	__________________ oO0southernsky0Oo

09-25-2002, 02:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Ultimate_Warrior Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: oklahoma Posts: 4	That is true. Those old men could sing high and get that spirit there.

09-26-2002, 05:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
CrazyInDn Pow Wow Bum Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Just around the bend Posts: 29	You probly have'nt heard the Southern Boys than!!!!! Talk about taking it HIGH!!!! __________________ Southern Boy

09-26-2002, 03:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
The_Ultimate_Warrior Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: oklahoma Posts: 4	Southern Boyz is a little to high. Thats why they never win first too much. They kick it too high and not all of them can get up there. Just my bro kelly and his dad and anthony and ronald. The others are just faking. If they did sing lower they would be hard to beat. That is my opinion, and it doesn't mean its true though. So if records is reading don't try and explain the whole singing concept to every one again.

09-27-2002, 11:36 AM	#9 (permalink)
travelingmocs Teen Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: HogPit, U.S.A. and raised in hell Posts: 291	fffff __________________ If I do not know the answer someone else will!!!! Also forgive me, this system does not have a spell check so forgive the bad spelling Last edited by travelingmocs; 05-15-2008 at 03:48 PM.

09-28-2002, 11:10 AM	#10 (permalink)
Sahnish Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: North Dakota Posts: 67	Sourthern and Northern are different in other ways than who sings the highest. The cut beats are different, in different places, different number, the starting singing soft and ending loud, having women as such a big part of the singing, etc etc. In my mind that is what makes sourthern and northern different. Where did that start?? __________________ Sahnish "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

09-30-2002, 02:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sahnish Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: North Dakota Posts: 67	Anyone? Any good guesses as to when it started?? __________________ Sahnish "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

10-09-2002, 10:46 AM	#12 (permalink)
contemptradish Junior Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: B-town, IN Posts: 148	it is generally accepted that the two distinct styles of song and dance (northern and southern) developed in the 1850s and 60s, as reservation boundaries were being established. it forced a general shift of indian groups to both the north and the south, and, though based on the same warrior society dances, the two separate styles began to emerge. __________________ C-trad

10-09-2002, 02:30 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sahnish Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: North Dakota Posts: 67	First let me say that I am not attacking you or anything like that. I am however very interested in history, that sounds like something that was written in a book, mind sharing the title of that book. I guess I am wondering how putting Indians on rez's would make them change styles? How did they decide whether to sing northern or sourthern, I mean they sing sourthern style in WI? __________________ Sahnish "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

10-20-2002, 09:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
TacO5000 shesaysshelikesmy Dougie! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 603	ok. well far as I know the southern sing came from the omaha tribe. and was given to the cheynne then was given to the kiowa who call it o-ho-ma and had there own logde. which was a misspronation of the omaha. the gourd dance was part of the kiowa sun dance. it was stopped because when the kiowa would get together around the fourth of july because of the summer solest was haulted because the us would send troops to kill the kiowa because it was the time when all kiowa band would get together. it was revived during the fiftys. the drum that is used today in pow wows came from the sioux which was given to the omaha and so on and so forth. southering singing is original and northern sing has just came around not too long ago. two different styles but both the licks!! round dance came from the southwestern tribes giving to the kiowa. __________________ Dayum I make some keen DrumSticks!!!!!!

06-29-2008, 11:10 AM	#15 (permalink)
Gledanh Zhinga Blacksmith Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 303	Some of the prominent tribes who sing "Southern," at least war dance style, were Northern tribes in the pre-rez days. For example, the Kiowa had a Crow tribal connection, which still survives today. The Comanche had the Shoshone connection in the area of Wyoming. The Ponca and Pawnee were removed to the south from the northern Nebraska/South Dakota area. That the northerners sing high and the southerners sing low may be a matter of happenstance and slow evolution after the reservation period, as Contemptradish suggested, above. This is theory; it's difficult to nail this down with hard facts.

06-29-2008, 07:49 PM	#16 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau