thekaug

It's just a big commercial contest powwow if you don't like it and you think it is wrong just don't go, I didn't

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WhoMe

In CONTEST POWWOWS you can't please everybody. Never can. . . never will.

I have been to the Gathering since their first humble beginnings at the old University of Albuquerque. To my knowledge, the Pacheco family has never "ran" the Gathering of Nations. But they HAVE been very instrumental in the evolution of powwows in the New Mexico area.

There are two good arguments on this thread. One that women should not judge male singing groups. The other, powwows evolve and women would make good singing judges.

Since the beginning of Gathering of Nations, Derrick has broken many barriers associated with traditional powwows. This has actually started some new trends in what we now call "Contest Powwows."

Through the years, he has used: non Indians, women, actors, politicians, university sports figures and people from the audience to judge his contests including his drum contest. What do these people know about Indian singing? Some are more knowledgeable. Others are clueless. But, he is putting up the money, entitling him to run it as he sees fit.

That is the rule for ALL powwows. "The committee will run their powwow as they see fit." Sometime this
WILL backfire as, some powwows make it only one year.

Love it, leave it or not support it. Several local Indian people in the New Mexico area have tried to hold an alternate powwow at the same time as the Gathering, with little success.

If ANY women were to be chosen to be head singers, Sunny and Delia are among the most travelled and talented in Indian Country.

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"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

Tom Iron Eagle

Wonderful Post Who Me. You have a fantastic way of getting to the Point and saying something Profound as well as seeing the Big Picture.

The only negative thing I would say is that you get to the Point and are Profound before me - But that is not a bad thing as you are so well versed in your posts and it is a true joy to read your words.

AS you have said - Powwows are local and thus what happens is mostly via the control of the Committee, etc.

We must stop kidding ourselves and realize that Contest Powwows (although our culture) are much the same as any other "contestS" that relies on human judges and points. It is very, very SUBJECTIVE! And Gathering Of Nations is not exception to having judges that are very Subjective.

Donna D

Maybe the guys would be happy if the lead singer from the Mankillers (an all-woman drum) was Head Judge. Women do too lead, I heard a gooooood woman lead 2 weeks ago. She was Lakota, singing very good northern, sorry, but she was as good as any man I've heard lead.

CandaePrincess

Just gotta say something in here!!!!!!!! *L* Okay...if it's a drum contest....what is the big deal??? It's not like it's some spiritual ceremony. It's a POW WOW. If you're offended that women were chosen....are you insecure about your own issues of being a man??? Or are you just mad b/c you or someone you like wasn't chosen to be the head judge??? I'm sorry if I don't see how judging something that is totally seperate from culture...ie...a drum contest, dance contest, 49 contest.......I don't see how it could be looked as something "sacred" or something only MEN should be able to judge. That's just silly. Sounds like some people have major issues with any type of women in power. Now if it was about women singing at the drum...then we'd have a problem!!! *L*
Just let it go......




let it go!!!

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Mussy by birth.....Native by the Grace of God.......

Donna D

I was thinking about women judging and/or singing and I remembered what I was told about why southern men (especially) have a problem with women singing and participating in certain ceremonies. It's that women have too much power, especially in their child-bearing years. I can see why that would make a difference in ceremonies, but when money is involved like at a powwow, doesn't it make it non-ceremonial? I don't want to stir anyone up, but things are done differently in powwows than in ceremonies and people adapt to that.
Also, I've been to powwows where men were judging women dancing which I don't particularly like, but rarely do they have women judging the men as well! And I like that even less!!

records_all_drumz

If you really want to stir the pot, some singers never have been to their respective ceremonies. Most know only the top songs out there on CD's. :-)

WhoMe

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Candae Cane,

You go girl! Tell it like it IS!




The way I see it (this is my personal opinion) . . .

"If a drum is good and can jam, it shouldn't matter who judges them. . . man, woman, transvestite *L. If the judges are knowledgable and the tabulators are non-biased and fair. . . the drum who is singing the best at any particular powwow, should win."

Maybe this is Eutopia, and too much to wish for? *L
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RecordsADs:

You have brought up a good point. Maybe it should be posted as a thread.

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DonnaD:

Do you think anybody would be offended if an all male drum called theirselves "The WOMAN KILLERS?" and only set-up at "two-spirit" powwows?

*L

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"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

Kakeeya

:rofl2: :rofl2:

Donna D

They call themselves the Mankillers to honor Wilma Mankiller, first modern era chief of Cherokee Nation. Also Mankiller is an honored name in the Cherokee tribe. If they only set up at "two-spirit powwows" that's just because of the attitudes of a lot of men who don't like women in their playground.

I don't go to gourd dances because as a veteran of Vietnam era Army, I get pissed to be relegated to the background while a 4-year-old boy can dance with the men. Veterans or not! Just cause someone's a man shouldn't give them status as a warrior, especially if their cajones haven't even dropped! I belong to 3 different warrior societies and carry my patch on my regalia and still get passed over all the time when the men are looking for flag carriers. Geronimo had 2 women warriors in his band, there have been women warriors in every tribe I've ever heard about, so how come we get no respect?

Donna D

I meant to say the first modern era WOMAN chief....

CandaePrincess

I will have to agree on this one. If a woman can go and fight in war, she should be shown some respect. IE-Carrying in a flag, or dancing with the color guard. As far as tribal dances though, I still dance the way I was taught....to dance on the outside of the drum. (Does this explain why I usually dance alone and not with men! *L*) Some traditions are to be respected, regardless of what you've done in your life as far as "equal" or "empowerment" obstacles overcame.
But again, we're on a topic about something that wasn't a part of our culture. American gov't military is no part of our culture, so it shouldn't be a problem for a woman to be honored in the same way a man would, when it comes to military status.


that's all.....



:Chatter

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Mussy by birth.....Native by the Grace of God.......

WhoMe

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DonnaD,

You just don't get it do you?

Gourd dance is about tradition.

No matter what tribe's origin it is - Kiowa, Comanche or Cheyenne. The rules explicitly include "NO women shaking a gourd." Even if you ARE from another tribe AND a woman veteran, please learn about why this dance is done and it's rich history.

You seem to have Eurocentric (White Ways) of thinking. . .

If you continue to believe as you do . . . you will change any tribes tradition's to fit your needs.


You don't seem to know much about the subjects you post -

Do ya?

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"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

Donna D

You have a western way of thinking. The Cherokee and most eastern tribes are MATRILINEAL, the women are the ones with the real power. Besides that, what's a 4-year-old doing in a warrior society. And another thing, I don't want to "shake a rattle." Just because I'm a woman who is a veteran, don't call me "white." Got it? Is that your answer to everything? Or do you just not respect any tribal traditions but your own?

Donna D

Another thing, ndns have fought in EVERY war fought by the U.S. Some eastern tribes supported the U.S. during the Revolutionary War, some supported the British. But the tribes have fought in EVERY war.

The Rock