cacarpenter89

Hi all! I am in the Boy Scouts and dance fancy through my Order of the Arrow lodge. We have a new and inexperienced drum team and, unfortunately, no overly knowledgeable adviser for the team.

The team has a long history, but we cannot find any of the tapes that we made from several years ago because our team hit a rough spot and disbanded for a little while until interest grew again. As such, we do not have any ruffles, and we're a Southern drum.

BIG PROBLEM!!!

We've been trying to write some, but drummers keep coming up with sneak-ups (we already have one or two). When I asked them why, most thought the only difference was that ruffles are faster.

I have given them access to several videos and recordings of both ruffles and sneak-ups, and they are still not sure of the differences.

Could anyone detail the main differences in the beats and songs for me so that it's coming from someone within the powwow and drumming community? It would be greatly appreciated!

they_drag_him

You need to take tobacco to an authentic drum group near you. The internet is not a place for giving away information.

cacarpenter89

Ok, thanks! That's a lot more information that I had before or that I could have gotten from our adviser. I'm sorry for any offense I may have caused.

We are in northern West Virginia and I'm not aware of any southern drums in the area. Does anyone know of any in our area that may be willing to help us out?

Thank you!

they_drag_him

Is this a hobby or fad of the Boy Scouts? If you are serious, take a trip to a southern plains community in Oklahoma. Take tobacco, groceries and some good old fashioned hard working guys. See if any elders need help with grocery trips or yardwork. Be humble and the answers will come your way, otherwise, you'll be the laughing stock of powwows.

cacarpenter89

Actually, Scouting's Honor Society, the Order of the Arrow, is based on the traditions and lore of the Delaware and its ceremonies invole native figures and traditions. In fact, when the Order's highest honor, the Vigil Honor, is bestowed, the honoree is given a name in either Delaware or a local tribe's language. The initial purpose of the native basis was to make the organization more appealing and interesting to youth.

It served its purpose in that regard, because the growing interest in native traditions led to lodges forming dance and drum teams. At our Section (regions that are made up of several lodges) Conclaves and even at our national conferences, we host competitions in the different dance styles and general powwows; many of the dancers also attend powwows on a regular basis. I know of several lodges whose drums are regularly invited to local powwows as guest drums, including our own before we became less active.

So, to answer your question, I would say that native dance and drum has become a hobby and passion for many Scouts who have been exposed to the culture through the Order of the Arrow. Our group is serious about performing correctly and honorably and about respecting the traditions of the people whose customs we are participating in. However, a lengthy trip is not feasible for the memebrs of the group.

I recieved a PM with a few leads on individuals in our area who may be willing to help, so I am going to follow up on those.

Thanks you,
Chris

stymee

Try to find out how your order was first introduced to our traditions and customs. From there you can get a feel of why this was encouraged. As for the type of songs, you should allready know RYTHM, CADENCE, and most of all GROOVE. Man, if you can't groove to a song, no matter how fast or slow, the song is a big fat NO. So, having that said, listen to some of these fancy dance songs on here, there is a difference in the southern and northern styles, and speed aint all of it, but, you should be able to pick up a certain kind of rythm to use in putting together a song that you like. Remember, just because you can make a sound, doesn't make you a singer, so, pray, do some searching, stay teachable, and always don't be afraid of asking questions, just like you did here, you might catch some hell, but you might just get some answers too.

WhoMe

Someone get a rope!


*L

__________________
"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

cacarpenter89

Thanks for the advice, stymee. I think that will help our drummers understand a bit more about the differences between song types.

The Order was actually founded on those customs and traditions and they have been a part of it since its inception. Dr. Goodman, one of the founders of the Order, used the ideas of Ernest Thompson Seeton, the first Chief Scout of the BSA, that he had used in another youth group, the Woodcraft Indians. He liked the appeal and noticed the success of Seeton's other group, and so incorporated them into the Order of the Arrow.

So, as the Order grew, the youth interest in the other traditions of the Native world grew as well. As someone who has been in Scouting all his life, I would find it very difficult for a Lodge Adviser to deny someone the opportunity to expand on their understanding and participation in something that they have been exposed to, so long as they were doing it respectfully and properly, particularly in the case of the dancers and drummers. It helps keep youth active in Scouting even after they are no longer active with their units and, I feel, helps promote diversity and understanding between cultures.

I appreciate the advice that you all are giving me. I think that our drum team will be made better because of it.

they_drag_him

We really don't care about the Boy Scouts and their insidious ways of stealing our culture. You just better make sure you guys sing those songs correctly.

cacarpenter89

Somehow, I don't think that "we" refers to everyone. Our drum and several others in the area have been praised by tribes and invited to actual powwows, not just the ones that we put on as a group. Not to mention that we have many Native drums that are happy to serve as host drums for us when lodges host their own, full-out powwows.

"Stealing" would imply that we are calling your culture our own. Nowhere do we make that assertion. The relationship of our Legend, the basis of the Order of the Arrow, and the Order itself is similar to the story of King Solomon and it's relationship to Freemasonry. Nowhere do Masons claim to be a part of Solomon's culture. Instead, they learn important lessons from the story and build off of that.

Also, do you think that I would have stopped our inexperienced and generally ignorant head drummer from drumming a sneak-up as a ruffle, or that I would have extended the courtesy to ask about the differences in an effort to convince him of them if I weren't concerned with being respectful or with doing it correctly?

I admit, I am not Native and I do not know all of the intricacies of the various cultures; that is why I asked. If you have had an experience with a group of Scouts being disrespectful out of sheer stupidity, then I apologize on their behalf; what they did was wrong. If it was out of ignorance, then I feel that an effort should have been extended to them to educate them, not alienate them.

Since you are apparently offended by our "theft" of your culture, I would encourage you to take a closer look at what we are trying and, in many cases, have been encouraged, to do, not only by our leaders, but by many of yours as well. To be honest, your culture would not get quite as much exposure as it does to the country's non-Native population if it weren't for our generally well-received participation in it. In return, we would not be quite as understanding of other cultures and would be far less-well rounded people. If anything, we are helping to create cross-culture bridges and expand understanding on both sides of the creek.

However, there are rocks in the Earth on both sides that prevent the corner posts from being staying in, and have to be broken up so that they can become part of the soil that holds the posts in and keeps the bridge from being washed away. In general, the dancers and drummers of the Order of the Arrow are not those rocks; they are the planks of the bridge, and their effort makes up the spikes driven into the supports. However, there are only enough of us to go halfway.

We do become offended when you participate in our culture, nor in our program; on the contrary, we welcome it (granted, our traditions are different and, apparently, more accepting). There are many Native Scouts in the country, and they are a valuable asset to the program and all those around them. Have they "stolen" our traditions or ideals? No. They have accepted them and learned from them, just as we have yours.

As we are generally more respectful (individually) and less hostile than you were in your last post, I would ask only that you open up a little. I'm sure that the boys of the Order in a lodge in your area could use some help in perfecting their songs, dances, and knowledge. In return, you may be surprised at just how considerate we are. You might even learn a little something from us, as well.

Respectfully,
Chris

LSS

Chris,

No, not everyone of BSA or OA (or whatever organization founded upon Native ways of life) may treat things you practice with as much reverence as you may. This is sad...but on the same note...it is good that you at least do. I am not apart of any of the kinds of organizations we are talking about but have done some thing with them trying to help them out. The only reason I have done so is because, like you, their leadership had approached me in a good way and their "students" do their best to mimic their leadership. While they take "advice" to heart and try to apply it to the best of their ability, some things are just naturally inherent. LOL...speaking of which...I have a fraternity brother who has no rhythm! Watching him trying to dance is quite funny...but he loosens up after a few beverages. Catch my drift?

While you, and any other who try to in the most respectful manner possible according to the opportunity afforded to you, participate in these ways...it is very important that you "know your stuff" and do your best to replicate it as if it were apart of you all your life. For many outside of our Native Walk of life, this is impossible.

I've seen a handful do it...one that comes to mind has done so for approximately 30 years. He sings with me. He knows his stuff...and he's not affraid to say that he does not...nor is he affraid to ask. When he makes a mistake, he's quicker to pay for his mistakes than others at the drum. Why does he do this?...Because he knows he's often under more scrutiny than myself or others. When he does things "the right way", one of two things will happen...

1- people will ignore him as "just another", or
2- people will see it, call him out, & recognize him for his care of something that does not naturally belong to him...but shared with him to take care of as his own.

So my question to you sir, knowing you will continue to strive to do the best you can with your limited resources (and no, I do not know this gentleman), will you choose to follow your own way or will you choose to be one of the two I mentioned above?

Resources are all around you. In our Native Way...you would just have to be patient and humble to take what the Creator gives you. Where are you in your walk?


LSS

__________________
To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

sokoki_wolf