"Fully" Qualified??

suthernwaterbird · 02-22-2008, 04:41 AM

A lot of southern drum hop n skip around because of their knowledge of the basic intertribal, flag song ect and boast about being a southern drum, that can handle being a host. What specifications REALLY qualify you, to be a fully prepared, good, quality host drum? I'd say more then the basic knowledge of songs...Any true southern drum should know Snake dance as a start. Any thing else? Anyone? you? you?

**Josiah** · 02-22-2008, 07:34 AM

I would say that a "southern drum" must know Gourd Dance songs, enough to last all afternoon without repeating themselves.

**Wojapi4Me** · 02-22-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah

I would say that a "southern drum" must know Gourd Dance songs, enough to last all afternoon without repeating themselves.

I would disagree with this. Gourd dance and war dance are two separate things. Some tribes that are very much into war dance don't come from a gourd dance history - like the Osage. They can probably sing Ilonska songs all day long, but why would their singers be required to sing Kiowa songs? Now, I'm sure that some Osage singers probably could sing gourd dance all day long as well, but they shouldn't be required. It's two separate things.

What constitutes a "southern" drum is almost impossible to answer. You'd have to be more specific and ask, "what constitutes a Kiowa drum?" or a Ponca drum or an Osage drum.

I fully understand your question, waterbird, but it's just hard to answer. I guess a good host southern drum would be able to handle sets of war dance songs as well as several specialty songs such as trot, snake, etc. But, with southern drums frequently being asked to sing such and such family song or American Legion songs, etc...it's just hard to say what level of preparedness they should have b/c inevitably they'll come a time when they're asked to sing something they don't know.

dancinfancy · 02-22-2008, 11:01 AM

I personally think that a good host sourthern drum should have it all gourd, war, trot, ect. I don't so much think they should know enough songs to not repeat one but know them just the same. Powwows today are today one tribe focused, there are tribes from all over comingto these powwows. You never know whos going to be at a powwow, so it would look really good on a drums part to be prepared for any thing.

TacO5000 · 02-22-2008, 12:52 PM

I would say having the proper song to sing when called upon.... and i always think its good to have a mix of singers from diffrent tribes to you can learn songs from there spicif tribe... Its an intertribal world these days.... but its always good to know tribal songs and family songs.... that way you don't offend someone by singing there song which might not be on the drum... or sing someones song to honer them or for there special.... now you know as well as I do s.w.b that lot of the young guys don't know snake dance.... but you never know when you'll get asked to sing it...... What happend to the old days when they would sing the snake dance for the fun of it.... I think everything is revoled around contests.... thats why I like the lil dances.... its all about have a good feeling and time!

suthernwaterbird · 02-22-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TacO5000

I would say having the proper song to sing when called upon.... and i always think its good to have a mix of singers from diffrent tribes to you can learn songs from there spicif tribe... Its an intertribal world these days.... but its always good to know tribal songs and family songs.... that way you don't offend someone by singing there song which might not be on the drum... or sing someones song to honer them or for there special.... now you know as well as I do s.w.b that lot of the young guys don't know snake dance.... but you never know when you'll get asked to sing it...... What happend to the old days when they would sing the snake dance for the fun of it.... I think everything is revoled around contests.... thats why I like the lil dances.... its all about have a good feeling and time!

TRUUUEEE DAT!! ESPECIALLY right after gourd dance ennit..just go right into it. MY cohn made a point to me one time that a GOOD southern drum, now keep in mind where southern originated from, should know Gourd Dance, Snake (Buffalo and Trot) Dance, Scalp Dance, War Dance ASIDE from the basic knowledge of Intertribal/Category songs. I think to be able to call yourself a TRUE all out SOUTHERN drum all these bases should be included. That way you are prepared, not saying you always will be, because NO ONE knows ALL the family songs, but heck when they ask you to be head singer/host drum, you can cover the major dances whether or not THEY ask for it...Because I know I've seen it, when your a host drum, and you have to pass a song..ugh...does NOT look good for any other gigs. No names, but I saw this at Marksville, La few years back from a big name group...Just a thought for all yunz guys lol

WhoMe · 02-22-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suthernwaterbird

A lot of southern drum hop n skip around because of their knowledge of the basic intertribal, flag song ect and boast about being a southern drum, that can handle being a host. What specifications REALLY qualify you, to be a fully prepared, good, quality host drum? I'd say more then the basic knowledge of songs...Any true southern drum should know Snake dance as a start. Any thing else? Anyone? you? you?

suthern,

You have some good points.

However, a true southern drum may not necessarily be a good host drum at today's powwows.

My rationale for this statement is - nowadays host drums are asked to respond to whatever the announcer calls upon them to sing.

The primary drum I sing with is southern. Over the years as host drum we have been called upon to sing a jingle side step, chicken dance, double beat, sneakup etc.

I think the hardest host drum position we have ever had to accomodate was in Memphis, TN when the host northern drum was a no show. We had to sing every song for 3 afternoons and nights including a morning gourd dance!

So are we a true southern drum. No.

Can we sing different southern tribal flag songs, snake&buffalo, war mothers, veterans songs, horse stealing, scalp/victory dance, lance and shield dance, eagle dance, two-step and 49?

YOU BETCHA!!! *L

suthernwaterbird · 02-22-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

suthern,

You have some good points.

However, a true southern drum may not necessarily be a good host drum at today's powwows.

My rationale for this statement is - nowadays host drums are asked to respond to whatever the announcer calls upon them to sing.

The primary drum I sing with is southern. Over the years as host drum we have been called upon to sing a jingle side step, chicken dance, double beat, sneakup etc.

I think the hardest host drum position we have ever had to accomodate was in Memphis, TN when the host northern drum was a no show. We had to sing every song for 3 afternoons and nights including a morning gourd dance!

So are we a true southern drum. No.

Can we sing different southern tribal flag songs, snake&buffalo, war mothers, veterans songs, horse stealing, scalp/victory dance, lance and shield dance, eagle dance, two-step and 49?

YOU BETCHA!!! *L

You forgot HOOP dance!!! lmao

What about Aztec Dance!!! haha jp

**Josiah** · 02-22-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wojapi4Me

I would disagree with this. Gourd dance and war dance are two separate things. Some tribes that are very much into war dance don't come from a gourd dance history - like the Osage. They can probably sing Ilonska songs all day long, but why would their singers be required to sing Kiowa songs? Now, I'm sure that some Osage singers probably could sing gourd dance all day long as well, but they shouldn't be required. It's two separate things.

What constitutes a "southern" drum is almost impossible to answer. You'd have to be more specific and ask, "what constitutes a Kiowa drum?" or a Ponca drum or an Osage drum.

I fully understand your question, waterbird, but it's just hard to answer. I guess a good host southern drum would be able to handle sets of war dance songs as well as several specialty songs such as trot, snake, etc. But, with southern drums frequently being asked to sing such and such family song or American Legion songs, etc...it's just hard to say what level of preparedness they should have b/c inevitably they'll come a time when they're asked to sing something they don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suthernwaterbird

A lot of southern drum hop n skip around because of their knowledge of the basic intertribal, flag song ect and boast about being a southern drum, that can handle being a host. What specifications REALLY qualify you, to be a fully prepared, good, quality host drum? I'd say more then the basic knowledge of songs...Any true southern drum should know Snake dance as a start. Any thing else? Anyone? you? you?

The Original Question is What really qualifies you as a Fully Prepared Quality Host Southern Drum

Should we break the Catagory up to Southern East and Southern West and Oklahoma???

Here in Oklahoma at a POWWOW the Host Southern Drum best know GOURD Dance Songs...

**Josiah** · 02-22-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suthernwaterbird

TRUUUEEE DAT!! ESPECIALLY right after gourd dance ennit..just go right into it. MY cohn made a point to me one time that a GOOD southern drum, now keep in mind where southern originated from, should know Gourd Dance, Snake (Buffalo and Trot) Dance, Scalp Dance, War Dance ASIDE from the basic knowledge of Intertribal/Category songs. I think to be able to call yourself a TRUE all out SOUTHERN drum all these bases should be included. That way you are prepared, not saying you always will be, because NO ONE knows ALL the family songs, but heck when they ask you to be head singer/host drum, you can cover the major dances whether or not THEY ask for it...Because I know I've seen it, when your a host drum, and you have to pass a song..ugh...does NOT look good for any other gigs. No names, but I saw this at Marksville, La few years back from a big name group...Just a thought for all yunz guys lol

Nailed it!!!

LSS · 02-23-2008, 01:49 PM

Let me see if I can offer a reply from the perspective of a teacher...

In each individual classroom, teachers require students to meet/follow certain expectations and guidelines. In this "mingled society", you have different students from different walks of life. We all agree that "mainstream society" tries to dictate what we all do and it does not take into consideration lifestyles (and no, not the condom) of everyone...everyone is expected to follow one lifestyle.

Do I penalize those who are not of the "mainstream society" because they are more talkative or I have to rephrase to get the same answers out of them? Do I even penalize them for not having the experiences of others?

While this initial question is not about the classroom, the same concept/lesson applies as it was touched on earlier by several of you all. I spoke with my wife about this and her response was that while her people do not Gourd Dance she would not discourage a drum for wanting to sing a set or two if they could work it into their program. Chances are, people are gonna be standing around looking dumbfounded not knowing what to think. Not that there are not Gourd Dancers/Singers around here, but the "Center Drum" style pow wow is not the norm in our area and a Gourd Dancer would not travel to their pow wow to do so.

With this being said, lets take a couple of drums and look at some scenarios. Cozad go sing at my wife's tribal dance...the expectations are to sing war dance, intertribal, social dance, etc. Would they be "fully qualified"? Absolutely! And they would have more of an option to do whatever pow wow they'd like. Now, lets take your average drum from the southeast trying to serve as Host at a small tribal dance out in California...I'm sure there would be some ceremonial dances/songs of the people that would be unknown to the singers.

So, I guess while I feel it is important for ANY southern drum to know the history/stories/songs of the origin of the dance/drum, to accurately answer the question is going to depend on "the people/committee". It is not a matter of us as people trying to "pigeon-whole" a drum into qualified vs unqualified but more or less the discretion of the pow wow committee to do so.

The unfortunate thing about it all is that sometimes the closest drum that meets all of the requirements (to include various family/individual songs) does not exist. Then, people have to "weigh" whats more important to them. "Do I want a drum who knows 'Old Man No Ear's Song' or do I want a drum who knows the Lynch Family Song?"

So, why don't we open up a thread on what would make a "fully qualified" drum in your area?

Just my 2 cents worth. Feel free to deposit it if you'd like!

LSS

**CandaePrincess** · 02-23-2008, 02:03 PM

Well since your pow wows in Oklahoma are 3 day intertribals with contests and afternoon sessions......most tribes know who to get for a head singer, or host drum. It used to just usually be a head singer and then if they were with a group, their partners would show up and all that jazz. But if you're going to coin yourself as a Southern drum group who can represent. You better know what is going to be expected at a pow wow and be ready for anything. Nothing

02-22-2008, 04:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
suthernwaterbird nobody Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: atl, ga Posts: 1,004	"Fully" Qualified?? A lot of southern drum hop n skip around because of their knowledge of the basic intertribal, flag song ect and boast about being a southern drum, that can handle being a host. What specifications REALLY qualify you, to be a fully prepared, good, quality host drum? I'd say more then the basic knowledge of songs...Any true southern drum should know Snake dance as a start. Any thing else? Anyone? you? you? __________________ WhY yOu AsK? bEcUz We CaN!

02-22-2008, 07:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
Josiah PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oklahoma City Oklahoma USA Posts: 4,494 Blog Entries: 4	I would say that a "southern drum" must know Gourd Dance songs, enough to last all afternoon without repeating themselves. __________________

02-22-2008, 11:01 AM	#4 (permalink)
dancinfancy dancinfancy Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 237	I personally think that a good host sourthern drum should have it all gourd, war, trot, ect. I don't so much think they should know enough songs to not repeat one but know them just the same. Powwows today are today one tribe focused, there are tribes from all over comingto these powwows. You never know whos going to be at a powwow, so it would look really good on a drums part to be prepared for any thing. __________________ The look on a baby's face the first time they hear the drum is priceless.......

02-22-2008, 12:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
TacO5000 shesaysshelikesmy Dougie! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 624	I would say having the proper song to sing when called upon.... and i always think its good to have a mix of singers from diffrent tribes to you can learn songs from there spicif tribe... Its an intertribal world these days.... but its always good to know tribal songs and family songs.... that way you don't offend someone by singing there song which might not be on the drum... or sing someones song to honer them or for there special.... now you know as well as I do s.w.b that lot of the young guys don't know snake dance.... but you never know when you'll get asked to sing it...... What happend to the old days when they would sing the snake dance for the fun of it.... I think everything is revoled around contests.... thats why I like the lil dances.... its all about have a good feeling and time! __________________ Dayum I make some keen DrumSticks!!!!!!

02-23-2008, 01:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 871	Let me see if I can offer a reply from the perspective of a teacher... In each individual classroom, teachers require students to meet/follow certain expectations and guidelines. In this "mingled society", you have different students from different walks of life. We all agree that "mainstream society" tries to dictate what we all do and it does not take into consideration lifestyles (and no, not the condom) of everyone...everyone is expected to follow one lifestyle. Do I penalize those who are not of the "mainstream society" because they are more talkative or I have to rephrase to get the same answers out of them? Do I even penalize them for not having the experiences of others? While this initial question is not about the classroom, the same concept/lesson applies as it was touched on earlier by several of you all. I spoke with my wife about this and her response was that while her people do not Gourd Dance she would not discourage a drum for wanting to sing a set or two if they could work it into their program. Chances are, people are gonna be standing around looking dumbfounded not knowing what to think. Not that there are not Gourd Dancers/Singers around here, but the "Center Drum" style pow wow is not the norm in our area and a Gourd Dancer would not travel to their pow wow to do so. With this being said, lets take a couple of drums and look at some scenarios. Cozad go sing at my wife's tribal dance...the expectations are to sing war dance, intertribal, social dance, etc. Would they be "fully qualified"? Absolutely! And they would have more of an option to do whatever pow wow they'd like. Now, lets take your average drum from the southeast trying to serve as Host at a small tribal dance out in California...I'm sure there would be some ceremonial dances/songs of the people that would be unknown to the singers. So, I guess while I feel it is important for ANY southern drum to know the history/stories/songs of the origin of the dance/drum, to accurately answer the question is going to depend on "the people/committee". It is not a matter of us as people trying to "pigeon-whole" a drum into qualified vs unqualified but more or less the discretion of the pow wow committee to do so. The unfortunate thing about it all is that sometimes the closest drum that meets all of the requirements (to include various family/individual songs) does not exist. Then, people have to "weigh" whats more important to them. "Do I want a drum who knows 'Old Man No Ear's Song' or do I want a drum who knows the Lynch Family Song?" So, why don't we open up a thread on what would make a "fully qualified" drum in your area? Just my 2 cents worth. Feel free to deposit it if you'd like! LSS __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!