Accent/honor beats

**billyjoejimbob** · 11-06-2006, 12:37 PM

regardless of what people call them.

in southern songs, the three in the middle....

should they be the same speed or faster than the rest of the song?

I ask becuase I see both happen, a few drums I have seen do them REALLY fast to the point that it messes up all the dancers.

Dtwosnakes · 11-06-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyjoejimbob

regardless of what people call them.

in southern songs, the three in the middle....

should they be the same speed or faster than the rest of the song?

I ask becuase I see both happen, a few drums I have seen do them REALLY fast to the point that it messes up all the dancers.

good question,bjjb,I'm gonna wait to hear what the answer is to this one, myself

Ron S · 11-06-2006, 04:37 PM

The honor beats are louder, not faster. Listen to the old tapes and you'll hear that they never speed up these beats.
Ron

WhoMe · 11-06-2006, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyjoejimbob

regardless of what people call them.

in southern songs, the three in the middle....

should they be the same speed or faster than the rest of the song?

I ask becuase I see both happen, a few drums I have seen do them REALLY fast to the point that it messes up all the dancers.

bjjb,

The three hard beats in the middle of a song actually have a meaning of why they are included in man dance/helushka songs. They are meant to flow with the song, not get ahead of it.

Singers who do not sit around ceremonial drums are usually the ones who get ahead of the song with the three beats. And you're right, it does mess up the dancers and make them switch feet,, and dance to an uneven beat.

In my tribe's wardance society, we only use two beats in the middle of the song. Many top singers today from my tribe can easily make this transition.

indianjoe1946 · 11-06-2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

bjjb,

The three hard beats in the middle of a song actually have a meaning of why they are included in man dance/helushka songs. They are meant to flow with the song, not get ahead of it.

Singers who do not sit around ceremonial drums are usually the ones who get ahead of the song with the three beats. And you're right, it does mess up the dancers and make them switch feet,, and dance to an uneven beat.

In my tribe's wardance society, we only use two beats in the middle of the song. Many top singers today from my tribe can easily make this transition.

I too was always taught that the 3 beats in a Southern song were to be to same tempo as the other beats.......many years ago, I had the honor to learn from someone who is very well respected as a singer ( he has a seat on his Tribes "Big Drum" (Ceremonial Drum), and he also stressed that they were to be even, not faster......and yes, there were to be TWO in the middle on the "Big Drum" and there are also two in some Northern style powwow songs.

**billyjoejimbob** · 11-07-2006, 12:47 AM

cool, thats what i thought. most of the time when that happens, i end up dancing crow!

RedShield · 11-07-2006, 08:22 PM

In my experience as not only a singer, but a professional musician, this is what happens... when things get louder, they get faster... it's a natural tendancy that you have to break as a singer.

In our songs, as we're coming up to the salute, we will put in a "rock" that gets gradually louder before the three strong beats. It's all a matter of subdivision of the beat internally (sorry the musician in me... or as my wife calls it, my musical turrets! LOL) One thing that we started doing on our drum to solve this problem was to play through the salute the first two push-ups accenting the "honor beats", and playing it Strong, weak, Strong, weak, Strong so that when you get to the third push-up, you shorten the lead (if it's possible) and the three honor beats of the salute stand out and help build the energy, but by this time, where to place the honor beats is no longer a question... just a trick we picked up from some more experienced singers, and it has improved our sound and precision a TON!!!!

Just an idea...

Paselo!

indianjoe1946 · 11-08-2006, 12:09 AM

Yes, louder and faster do sometimes equate......we solved that tendency with our younger singers by double tapping the 3 beats in the middle. That enabled them to keep them equally spaced, and after they got used to that,we were then able to progress to the 3 single beats and stay in tempo. The double tap helped them get used to NOT speeding up, eh ? Very similar to what Redshield did with his group.

TKMJ Productions · 11-11-2006, 08:29 PM

From what I was taught, I think RedShield is right on the drum with his explanations.

Now here is the killer for me. When honor beats are done right, the SPL (sound pressure level) coming thru the speakers goes way up and over peaks the speaker. Thats what blows speaker drivers. (Just ask Red Shield about Kimbolton, Ohio)

In other words, If you are using an amplifier with 1000 watts of power and your speaker is rated at 1000 watts of power, an honor beat can cause the amplifier to produce as much as double the wattage for that beat.

To protect our speakers, we use a device called a compressor that takes the signal produced by the honor beat and compresses it to the maxium output of the power amp and speaker.

The loudness of the honor beat comes thru at a lower "SPL", but the air movement from the speaker is still there and is increased. That's how we "Feel the Drum" It also helps protect the dancers from hearing loss. The "SPL" is what make a person go deaf at a big rock concert. Over time high spl levels will cause you to have hearing problems.

There are so many times I dance the circle to substandard sound systems causing the honor beats to distort because the sound system isn't correct for the application.

Those honor beats mean so much to a dancer in the circle. Why would you want to distroy them with poor sound quality?

Putting the honor beats in the right place in a song let alone keeping them consistant is a killer sometimes for those around a drum.

LuncheonMeat49 · 12-21-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyjoejimbob

regardless of what people call them.

in southern songs, the three in the middle....

should they be the same speed or faster than the rest of the song?

I ask becuase I see both happen, a few drums I have seen do them REALLY fast to the point that it messes up all the dancers.

I've seen this for years.....because of the rushing you see dancers do this......

dance, run (honor beats), dance........dance, run (catching up with the song), dance.........all the while, trying to make it look 'good'....

WhoMe · 12-21-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyjoejimbob

regardless of what people call them.

in southern songs, the three in the middle....

should they be the same speed or faster than the rest of the song?

I ask becuase I see both happen, a few drums I have seen do them REALLY fast to the point that it messes up all the dancers.

bjjb,

Is there really any "honor" in beating a drum faster than the rest of the song???

*L

**billyjoejimbob** · 12-21-2006, 06:08 PM

Is there really any honor in beating something>?

**Josiah** · 12-22-2006, 10:52 AM

My understanding is the hard beats mimic the rifle or cannon fire through the village under attack and the honor beats help remember the ones that died...

hobbs49 · 12-24-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah

My understanding is the hard beats mimic the rifle or cannon fire through the village under attack and the honor beats help remember the ones that died...

FWIW, This is what I'd always heard as well. When I was dancing more, that's generally how I interpreted those beats in my dancing.

11-06-2006, 12:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,525	Accent/honor beats regardless of what people call them. in southern songs, the three in the middle.... should they be the same speed or faster than the rest of the song? I ask becuase I see both happen, a few drums I have seen do them REALLY fast to the point that it messes up all the dancers. __________________ There are 2 types of people in the world... Really stupid people who think they are smart and Really smart people who think they are smart.

11-07-2006, 12:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,525	cool, thats what i thought. most of the time when that happens, i end up dancing crow! __________________ There are 2 types of people in the world... Really stupid people who think they are smart and Really smart people who think they are smart.

11-07-2006, 08:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
RedShield Singer/ Dancer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 15,474	In my experience as not only a singer, but a professional musician, this is what happens... when things get louder, they get faster... it's a natural tendancy that you have to break as a singer. In our songs, as we're coming up to the salute, we will put in a "rock" that gets gradually louder before the three strong beats. It's all a matter of subdivision of the beat internally (sorry the musician in me... or as my wife calls it, my musical turrets! LOL) One thing that we started doing on our drum to solve this problem was to play through the salute the first two push-ups accenting the "honor beats", and playing it Strong, weak, Strong, weak, Strong so that when you get to the third push-up, you shorten the lead (if it's possible) and the three honor beats of the salute stand out and help build the energy, but by this time, where to place the honor beats is no longer a question... just a trick we picked up from some more experienced singers, and it has improved our sound and precision a TON!!!! Just an idea... Paselo! __________________ I became a singer because I love to sing... and to feed my addiction to cough drops!

11-08-2006, 12:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
indianjoe1946 Old Singer Dude Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 22	Yes, louder and faster do sometimes equate......we solved that tendency with our younger singers by double tapping the 3 beats in the middle. That enabled them to keep them equally spaced, and after they got used to that,we were then able to progress to the 3 single beats and stay in tempo. The double tap helped them get used to NOT speeding up, eh ? Very similar to what Redshield did with his group. __________________

11-11-2006, 08:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
TKMJ Productions Powwow Sound 4 U Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio, Oregon. Two locations, No waiting Posts: 928	From what I was taught, I think RedShield is right on the drum with his explanations. Now here is the killer for me. When honor beats are done right, the SPL (sound pressure level) coming thru the speakers goes way up and over peaks the speaker. Thats what blows speaker drivers. (Just ask Red Shield about Kimbolton, Ohio) In other words, If you are using an amplifier with 1000 watts of power and your speaker is rated at 1000 watts of power, an honor beat can cause the amplifier to produce as much as double the wattage for that beat. To protect our speakers, we use a device called a compressor that takes the signal produced by the honor beat and compresses it to the maxium output of the power amp and speaker. The loudness of the honor beat comes thru at a lower "SPL", but the air movement from the speaker is still there and is increased. That's how we "Feel the Drum" It also helps protect the dancers from hearing loss. The "SPL" is what make a person go deaf at a big rock concert. Over time high spl levels will cause you to have hearing problems. There are so many times I dance the circle to substandard sound systems causing the honor beats to distort because the sound system isn't correct for the application. Those honor beats mean so much to a dancer in the circle. Why would you want to distroy them with poor sound quality? Putting the honor beats in the right place in a song let alone keeping them consistant is a killer sometimes for those around a drum. __________________ Don't ask me what I think about something unless you want a truthful anwser. It may not be the anwser you are looking for. It's better to fly with the eagles then drive with the turkeys.

11-06-2006, 04:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ron S Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 87	The honor beats are louder, not faster. Listen to the old tapes and you'll hear that they never speed up these beats. Ron

12-21-2006, 06:08 PM	#12 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,525	Is there really any honor in beating something>? __________________ There are 2 types of people in the world... Really stupid people who think they are smart and Really smart people who think they are smart.

12-22-2006, 10:52 AM	#13 (permalink)
Josiah PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oklahoma City Oklahoma USA Posts: 4,356 Blog Entries: 4	My understanding is the hard beats mimic the rifle or cannon fire through the village under attack and the honor beats help remember the ones that died... __________________

12-25-2006, 11:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,525