Question on Southern Singing

WhoMe · 08-05-2005, 05:08 PM

I was judging a southern drum and saw a drum pass the leads four times to four different singers. To me, passing leads is not a part of southern singing. As a result, I gave no points for the Lead.

This drum is a good drum! But to me, multiple leads in the same song is NOT a part of southern singing (I have seen a person who leads a song, pass the lead to another singer, and this is acceptable).

What's your take?

**ac_miss** · 08-05-2005, 06:45 PM

Hmmm....I'd always wondered how some judges feel when singers pass on the lead to other singers.

LSS · 08-06-2005, 02:35 AM

Well...the way it was explained to me was this....

Whenever you have a person start up a song, a certain set of dynamics have been established. When the lead changes, so does the dynamics.

Its like everyones fingerprint....mine is different from yours! LOL! No two people have identical voices...and therefore no two people have identical leads. The drum has to be careful of that when they come in with their second! Also, you run the risk of the beat changing as well.....

In all....its too risky!

My take on lead change is that it should not happen. It should be the same person all four pushes (esp. in a contest song). Whenever I think of lead changing I think of Northern Singing.

Be a man...sing all four pushes....let us have something to base your leads off of. LOL

Niwiwan2005 · 08-08-2005, 10:15 AM

I 've had the honor to judge a few contests, and have discovered the following:

> The rules/guidelines for judging is usually determined by the the head Singing/drum judge.

> The geographic area and local tribal customs will also impact how contests judge their drums.

For example, pow-wows in the Midwest circuit, usually look for the lead singer to begin and end the song. It is expected that, to show versitality and Skill, 1 to 2 other singers will lead the second and third push-up of a contest song. This is viewed as a way to separate a close drum contest--"Are the quality of leads the same/or close as the 1st lead?"

Of course there are other areas that a drum is judged by, but to answer the question at hand, this is what I've seen out there.

LSS · 08-08-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niwiwan2005

I 've had the honor to judge a few contests, and have discovered the following:

> The rules/guidelines for judging is usually determined by the the head Singing/drum judge.

> The geographic area and local tribal customs will also impact how contests judge their drums.

For example, pow-wows in the Midwest circuit, usually look for the lead singer to begin and end the song. It is expected that, to show versitality and Skill, 1 to 2 other singers will lead the second and third push-up of a contest song. This is viewed as a way to separate a close drum contest--"Are the quality of leads the same/or close as the 1st lead?"

Of course there are other areas that a drum is judged by, but to answer the question at hand, this is what I've seen out there.

Hmmm....Thats a very interesting point you've made....Versatility!....

I know out here pow wow committees typically put together a little "declaration" describing the set rules of the Tribe. Would it be wise for the Head Singer or some drum representative talk with the Head Drum/Singing Judge to get some clarity on his "requirements"? Or would this be considered rude?

**Wojapi4Me** · 08-08-2005, 05:17 PM

I was taught that if you lead off a song, you should be prepared to finish that song. That said, I also started singing when 1st place drum money of $500 was considered huge! Nowadays, most big name drums won't even travel for less than $3,000. Different times for sure.

I think that with so many different ways of doing things and so many rules, that the guidelines should be spelled out by each committee. If a person, as a judge, then has a problem with the guidelines they can either take it up with the head judge or simply keep their mouth shut and not judge.

Nowadays, it seems to be the practice for northern drums to pass leads on all four push-ups of a contest song. Personally, I don't care for that rule. It should be up to the head singer who leads and how many times...not the head singing judge or pow wow committee. It'd be good to see it get back to a contest about overall singing quality from the group; not who leads or how many different leads or whatnot.

smokingrass · 08-08-2005, 10:35 PM

To me, passing the lead is showing confidence in the drum that everyone sitting around it knows what there sinnging and therefore knows what there doing. The ability for multiple people to sing lead is a good thing, and in my opinion should be recognized in a drumming competition.

1badazzndn · 08-08-2005, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

I was judging a southern drum and saw a drum pass the leads four times to four different singers. To me, passing leads is not a part of southern singing. As a result, I gave no points for the Lead.

This drum is a good drum! But to me, multiple leads in the same song is NOT a part of southern singing (I have seen a person who leads a song, pass the lead to another singer, and this is acceptable).

What's your take?

I think a lot of southern drums do it to show style. Everyone has their own voice, and can add to the overall sound. I know at dances where there is a head singer/center drum, no leads are passed, only songs...like what singerdad was saying: the person who starts, finishes. I see your point big time. But I see the other side too: Did the ballot have anything on there about switching leads for southern drum contest? If the drum judge/comittee had it in their interest to make specifications like that one, then I think they wouldve let the drums know ahead of time so points would be deducted. Im sure if the drum knew that you werent gonna give them any points for the leads, then I think they wouldve had just one lead on the song.

WhoMe · 08-09-2005, 12:45 PM

Point of Clarification:

I am talking about southern singing criteria in southern singing competition.

It is generally acknowledged in contemporary northern singing, the passing of leads is normal.

__

I was the head drum judge recently and selected northern and southern judges who were extremely knowledgeable and had first hand knowledge of their particular style of singing.

In the southern category there was a drum that had superior singers but followed a contemporary style that was more in line with northern style singing. The only difference being they sang in the more lower voice range.

As it turned out, a more traditional style of southern drum who adhered to a more traditional style southern protocol won the contest.

It was a case of flash (bling-bling) vs. tradition.

The drum that won: did not have dancers singing, did not pass any leads, did not put modern emphasis "northern beats," sang tribal songs and stuck with the basics.

I stood by the decision of the judges because they were all current singers and "were raised around the drum."

__

Maybe drum contests should begin to include both southern contemporary and separate southern traditional categories?

What do you think?

Some northern drum groups actually sing southern songs now in a southern lower voice range - particularly for the men's fancy dance category.

Maybe we should consider the following question:

At what point does southern singing become "GENERIC?"

1badazzndn · 08-09-2005, 02:15 PM

I think you made a fair decision! Seems as if a lot people get caught up in the lead of a song, i mean, yes its a huge part of drum contest, but You brought up a lot of things that every judge should know when judging southern drums...Only problem with that is I dont feel that the majority of the drum judges that are picked have the knowledge that you have. Thats what I was trying to get to in my last post.

LSS · 08-09-2005, 02:20 PM

Every person on the pow wow trail should read this thread...

I'm not being a jerk....just doin' what I know to be right!

powwowbum49 · 08-11-2005, 02:22 AM

Well, let's see...passing the lead of a song around to different singers is something that I do, but I do it at small dances and mainly to help newer singers learn how to lead (it is much easier to lead/start a song in time if it is already going than right off the bat, especially for new singers) and I never do it at contest dances. I may also pass a lead if it is late on Sunday and my voice is getting a bit rough...but that is another story...LOL.

I would have judged the same way you mentioned you did. Passing a lead is not something that one would see done around a traditional southern drum.

Now as for this whole contemp Southern category...why bother...just do a contemp singing category that includes both Northern and Southern drums and let them battle it out, especially since contemp southern drums have a lot of northern influence to them anyway. What ever happened to those good ole short, sweet and kickin southern songs...nobody make them anymore. Most all the new songs you need a third lung to lead since they are so dang long. My, my time are a changin aren't they!!!

Niwiwan2005 · 08-11-2005, 11:38 AM

Southern: Tradish or Contemporary

It's my opinion that the "Basics" or traditional way of southern style is best--overall. With that being said, here's another thought. One tends to see more Southern Contemporary style among pow-wows whose host nation is northern. At these "northern" pow-wows, the dancers tend to dance harder for a drum that is "all-that!" I expect that some southern drums feel the need to add the northern ways to the southern style, so that they will have more of a chance during northern contests. Who knows for sure?

What is for sure is...Southern contemporary, as a style, will continue to be around, and those who judge it, will have a challenge as to the criteria they use!

08-05-2005, 05:08 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,555	Question on Southern Singing I was judging a southern drum and saw a drum pass the leads four times to four different singers. To me, passing leads is not a part of southern singing. As a result, I gave no points for the Lead. This drum is a good drum! But to me, multiple leads in the same song is NOT a part of southern singing (I have seen a person who leads a song, pass the lead to another singer, and this is acceptable). What's your take? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

08-05-2005, 06:45 PM	#2 (permalink)
ac_miss Beading Mad Woman Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 2,964 Blog Entries: 3	Hmmm....I'd always wondered how some judges feel when singers pass on the lead to other singers. __________________ Bead All You Can Bead

08-06-2005, 02:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 870	Well...the way it was explained to me was this.... Whenever you have a person start up a song, a certain set of dynamics have been established. When the lead changes, so does the dynamics. Its like everyones fingerprint....mine is different from yours! LOL! No two people have identical voices...and therefore no two people have identical leads. The drum has to be careful of that when they come in with their second! Also, you run the risk of the beat changing as well..... In all....its too risky! My take on lead change is that it should not happen. It should be the same person all four pushes (esp. in a contest song). Whenever I think of lead changing I think of Northern Singing. Be a man...sing all four pushes....let us have something to base your leads off of. LOL __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

08-08-2005, 10:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
Niwiwan2005 Southern Chummie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 77	Judging Insight. I 've had the honor to judge a few contests, and have discovered the following: > The rules/guidelines for judging is usually determined by the the head Singing/drum judge. > The geographic area and local tribal customs will also impact how contests judge their drums. For example, pow-wows in the Midwest circuit, usually look for the lead singer to begin and end the song. It is expected that, to show versitality and Skill, 1 to 2 other singers will lead the second and third push-up of a contest song. This is viewed as a way to separate a close drum contest--"Are the quality of leads the same/or close as the 1st lead?" Of course there are other areas that a drum is judged by, but to answer the question at hand, this is what I've seen out there.

08-08-2005, 05:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,516	I was taught that if you lead off a song, you should be prepared to finish that song. That said, I also started singing when 1st place drum money of $500 was considered huge! Nowadays, most big name drums won't even travel for less than $3,000. Different times for sure. I think that with so many different ways of doing things and so many rules, that the guidelines should be spelled out by each committee. If a person, as a judge, then has a problem with the guidelines they can either take it up with the head judge or simply keep their mouth shut and not judge. Nowadays, it seems to be the practice for northern drums to pass leads on all four push-ups of a contest song. Personally, I don't care for that rule. It should be up to the head singer who leads and how many times...not the head singing judge or pow wow committee. It'd be good to see it get back to a contest about overall singing quality from the group; not who leads or how many different leads or whatnot. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

08-08-2005, 10:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
smokingrass straigt/oldstyle/grass Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: meridian, ms. Posts: 21	Passing To me, passing the lead is showing confidence in the drum that everyone sitting around it knows what there sinnging and therefore knows what there doing. The ability for multiple people to sing lead is a good thing, and in my opinion should be recognized in a drumming competition.

08-09-2005, 12:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,555	Point of Clarification: I am talking about southern singing criteria in southern singing competition. It is generally acknowledged in contemporary northern singing, the passing of leads is normal. __ I was the head drum judge recently and selected northern and southern judges who were extremely knowledgeable and had first hand knowledge of their particular style of singing. In the southern category there was a drum that had superior singers but followed a contemporary style that was more in line with northern style singing. The only difference being they sang in the more lower voice range. As it turned out, a more traditional style of southern drum who adhered to a more traditional style southern protocol won the contest. It was a case of flash (bling-bling) vs. tradition. The drum that won: did not have dancers singing, did not pass any leads, did not put modern emphasis "northern beats," sang tribal songs and stuck with the basics. I stood by the decision of the judges because they were all current singers and "were raised around the drum." __ Maybe drum contests should begin to include both southern contemporary and separate southern traditional categories? What do you think? Some northern drum groups actually sing southern songs now in a southern lower voice range - particularly for the men's fancy dance category. Maybe we should consider the following question: At what point does southern singing become "GENERIC?" __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 08-09-2005 at 12:56 PM.

08-09-2005, 02:15 PM	#10 (permalink)
1badazzndn SNAGNOMETRY 101 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: tha dirty south, and Powwow Country Posts: 353	I think you made a fair decision! Seems as if a lot people get caught up in the lead of a song, i mean, yes its a huge part of drum contest, but You brought up a lot of things that every judge should know when judging southern drums...Only problem with that is I dont feel that the majority of the drum judges that are picked have the knowledge that you have. Thats what I was trying to get to in my last post.

08-09-2005, 02:20 PM	#11 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 870	Yes in-deed.... Every person on the pow wow trail should read this thread... I'm not being a jerk....just doin' what I know to be right! __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

08-11-2005, 02:22 AM	#12 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	Well, let's see...passing the lead of a song around to different singers is something that I do, but I do it at small dances and mainly to help newer singers learn how to lead (it is much easier to lead/start a song in time if it is already going than right off the bat, especially for new singers) and I never do it at contest dances. I may also pass a lead if it is late on Sunday and my voice is getting a bit rough...but that is another story...LOL. I would have judged the same way you mentioned you did. Passing a lead is not something that one would see done around a traditional southern drum. Now as for this whole contemp Southern category...why bother...just do a contemp singing category that includes both Northern and Southern drums and let them battle it out, especially since contemp southern drums have a lot of northern influence to them anyway. What ever happened to those good ole short, sweet and kickin southern songs...nobody make them anymore. Most all the new songs you need a third lung to lead since they are so dang long. My, my time are a changin aren't they!!! __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

08-11-2005, 11:38 AM	#13 (permalink)
Niwiwan2005 Southern Chummie Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 77	Southern Style in the North Southern: Tradish or Contemporary It's my opinion that the "Basics" or traditional way of southern style is best--overall. With that being said, here's another thought. One tends to see more Southern Contemporary style among pow-wows whose host nation is northern. At these "northern" pow-wows, the dancers tend to dance harder for a drum that is "all-that!" I expect that some southern drums feel the need to add the northern ways to the southern style, so that they will have more of a chance during northern contests. Who knows for sure? What is for sure is...Southern contemporary, as a style, will continue to be around, and those who judge it, will have a challenge as to the criteria they use!

08-11-2005, 01:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
suthernwaterbird nobody Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: atl, ga Posts: 1,004