NON nDn Head Singers

WhoMe · 09-26-2003, 09:29 AM

______

I have read on the posts who most people think are superior singers. They are all good choices.

What about non nDn's who sing southern style?

I personally think there are some good singers who AREN'T nDn. My traditional uncles disagree with me and will not allow them at their drums.

What do you think?

Would you support a non nDn head singer at an "nDn" powwow?

**billyjoejimbob** · 09-26-2003, 10:56 AM

How about if no one else will do it? What do they say about that?

WhoMe · 09-26-2003, 11:01 AM

_____

Billy:

I can't speak for them. I just listen.

Back at cha' . . . "Can it really be called Indian singing if none of the singers are Indian?"

records_all_drumz · 09-26-2003, 03:46 PM

fergitaboutit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**billyjoejimbob** · 09-26-2003, 04:53 PM

Indian singing / Singing indian

WhoMe · 09-26-2003, 05:50 PM

________

Billy:

Like I said before. I like to sing with and enjoy the fellowship with singers who aren't Indian. I also appreciate their honesty in not claiming to be if they aren't.

Some non-Indian southern singers who can hold their own and even "carry" a powwow are: Larry Kincer, Bo Limbaugh, Darsh DeSilva, Mel Hofling (sp?), Clyde Ellis, Drew Armstrong and Alan Jarvis.

If these guys ever got together, they could make some powerful music.

However . . .

I don't think Indian music can be called Indian if there are no Indians singing it.

For instance I have heard kindergardeners sing so called Indian songs. This is not Indian Music.

I have heard a group of Polish Singers in Poland sing a so called "Comanche Song." This was not Indian Music.

I have also seen the Koshare Singers in Colorado sing. This is not Indian Music.

They are all "imitating" sounds.

Call it reinactment.

It is not Indian Music if an Indian is not participating in the singing.
It is just as if a non Indian created indian styled jewelry. It could not be called Indian unless it was made by an Indian.

9Trotter · 09-26-2003, 09:39 PM

Non ndns don't have any business heading up a drum, being the lead singer. That's just not right.

49singer · 10-03-2003, 01:34 AM

First let me say I have set down to sing with Larry kincer, Mel Hoefling a couple of times, and Alan Jarvis once. These guys are very knowledgeable of the songs. They know what songs are appropriate for each occasion. They know history, language, and culture. More so than some Natives. I know Mel was taken in by a family out Oklahoma way, I think Larry was also. I know that they have gone to drums and talked to them about singing certain songs berfore doinhg it. I know Larry has gotten a lot of help from Zotigh singers, and occasionally travels,and sings with Zotighs. They do things the right way. That being said, they are not claiming to be anything they are not, so I don't see anything wrong with them singing or being head singers. I myself am more white than anything else, but was always told and taught that what is not in the blood, runs through the heart. Just my 2.

wyat · 10-03-2003, 12:24 PM

What do you call it when Indians sing rock or jazz music? Is that called Indian music or jazz music / rock music by Indian musicians. You need to seperate the genre of music from the muscian or preformer.
If a white guys sings rock songs it's rock music but if he sings Indian songs then it's not Indian music?
What do you call it when a Kiowa sings an Ponca song. Is he a Kiowa singer or a Ponca singer?? Is that Kiowa music or Ponca music???

WhoMe · 10-03-2003, 01:04 PM

_____

If an Indian gives someone something - is he or she an "Indian Giver?"

> I see where you are going with this.

You are entitled to call it what you want. But it may be incorrect.

Music and other aesthetic practices broken up by genre are not the same as cultural ownership.

For instance . . .

the genres of rock vs. jazz music are not the same as Kiowa vs. Ponca songs because of tribal ownership.

If an Indian sings a blues song it can be marketed as a blues song.

However . . .

If a white guy makes a CD of round dance songs they CAN be marketed as "round dance songs" but NOT "Authentic Indian Songs."

Now . . .

What do you call a Kiowa who goes to White Eagle and sings a Ponca song?

Answer: Crazy ;)

park · 10-05-2003, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoMe
_____

What do you call a Kiowa who goes to White Eagle and sings a Ponca s

Mahn sape

sugar creek 49 queen · 10-06-2003, 02:04 AM

Mahn-sape!

Now that was funny!!:clapping:

Coyot_In_The_House · 10-08-2003, 01:31 PM

I agree....

SBZ4life · 10-08-2003, 07:38 PM

If the "non" Indian knows his songs, and can jam, I give all power to em. There is a difference between a hobbiest singer and a powwow singer. Not all powwow singers are native. New times, people have to be more open minded.

DungHill · 10-08-2003, 08:29 PM

I think there are many good singers out there. THe only ones I really know are in OK. Here are my pics.

Jimmy Kemble
Johnny Kemble
Joe Fish
Thuke Koomsa
Iron Toppah
Cheevers Toppah
Arlen Goodfox
Drew Armstrong
Marty Thurman
Herb Adson
Frank Adson
Jason Lightfoot
Jimmy Star
Eli Warrior
Steven Littlecook
Anthony Monoessey
Kelly Cable
etc. etc.

There are too many to mention

09-26-2003, 09:29 AM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,433	NON nDn Head Singers ______ I have read on the posts who most people think are superior singers. They are all good choices. What about non nDn's who sing southern style? I personally think there are some good singers who AREN'T nDn. My traditional uncles disagree with me and will not allow them at their drums. What do you think? Would you support a non nDn head singer at an "nDn" powwow?

09-26-2003, 05:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,433	________ Billy: Like I said before. I like to sing with and enjoy the fellowship with singers who aren't Indian. I also appreciate their honesty in not claiming to be if they aren't. Some non-Indian southern singers who can hold their own and even "carry" a powwow are: Larry Kincer, Bo Limbaugh, Darsh DeSilva, Mel Hofling (sp?), Clyde Ellis, Drew Armstrong and Alan Jarvis. If these guys ever got together, they could make some powerful music. However . . . I don't think Indian music can be called Indian if there are no Indians singing it. For instance I have heard kindergardeners sing so called Indian songs. This is not Indian Music. I have heard a group of Polish Singers in Poland sing a so called "Comanche Song." This was not Indian Music. I have also seen the Koshare Singers in Colorado sing. This is not Indian Music. They are all "imitating" sounds. Call it reinactment. It is not Indian Music if an Indian is not participating in the singing. It is just as if a non Indian created indian styled jewelry. It could not be called Indian unless it was made by an Indian. Last edited by WhoMe; 09-26-2003 at 05:53 PM.

10-03-2003, 12:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
wyat Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 85	?? What do you call it when Indians sing rock or jazz music? Is that called Indian music or jazz music / rock music by Indian musicians. You need to seperate the genre of music from the muscian or preformer. If a white guys sings rock songs it's rock music but if he sings Indian songs then it's not Indian music? What do you call it when a Kiowa sings an Ponca song. Is he a Kiowa singer or a Ponca singer?? Is that Kiowa music or Ponca music??? __________________ One thing at a time...

10-03-2003, 01:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,433	_____ If an Indian gives someone something - is he or she an "Indian Giver?" > I see where you are going with this. You are entitled to call it what you want. But it may be incorrect. Music and other aesthetic practices broken up by genre are not the same as cultural ownership. For instance . . . the genres of rock vs. jazz music are not the same as Kiowa vs. Ponca songs because of tribal ownership. If an Indian sings a blues song it can be marketed as a blues song. However . . . If a white guy makes a CD of round dance songs they CAN be marketed as "round dance songs" but NOT "Authentic Indian Songs." Now . . . What do you call a Kiowa who goes to White Eagle and sings a Ponca song? Answer: Crazy ;) Last edited by WhoMe; 10-03-2003 at 02:56 PM.

10-08-2003, 01:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
Coyot_In_The_House NO STALKERS! GET A LIFE? Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,865	I like what 49 Singer said.... I agree....

09-26-2003, 10:56 AM	#2 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,517	How about if no one else will do it? What do they say about that?

09-26-2003, 11:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,433	_____ Billy: I can't speak for them. I just listen. Back at cha' . . . "Can it really be called Indian singing if none of the singers are Indian?"

09-26-2003, 03:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
records_all_drumz Junior Dancer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: colorado Posts: 136	fergitaboutit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

09-26-2003, 04:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,517	Indian singing / Singing indian

09-26-2003, 09:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
9Trotter Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: May 2003 Location: AT DA 9 Posts: 18	Non ndns don't have any business heading up a drum, being the lead singer. That's just not right.

10-03-2003, 01:34 AM	#8 (permalink)
49singer Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: May 2002 Location: somewhere, USA Posts: 58	First let me say I have set down to sing with Larry kincer, Mel Hoefling a couple of times, and Alan Jarvis once. These guys are very knowledgeable of the songs. They know what songs are appropriate for each occasion. They know history, language, and culture. More so than some Natives. I know Mel was taken in by a family out Oklahoma way, I think Larry was also. I know that they have gone to drums and talked to them about singing certain songs berfore doinhg it. I know Larry has gotten a lot of help from Zotigh singers, and occasionally travels,and sings with Zotighs. They do things the right way. That being said, they are not claiming to be anything they are not, so I don't see anything wrong with them singing or being head singers. I myself am more white than anything else, but was always told and taught that what is not in the blood, runs through the heart. Just my 2.

10-06-2003, 02:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
sugar creek 49 queen Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11	Mahn-sape! Now that was funny!!:clapping:

10-08-2003, 07:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	If the "non" Indian knows his songs, and can jam, I give all power to em. There is a difference between a hobbiest singer and a powwow singer. Not all powwow singers are native. New times, people have to be more open minded. __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

10-08-2003, 08:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
DungHill Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Roswell,N.M. Posts: 12	I think there are many good singers out there. THe only ones I really know are in OK. Here are my pics. Jimmy Kemble Johnny Kemble Joe Fish Thuke Koomsa Iron Toppah Cheevers Toppah Arlen Goodfox Drew Armstrong Marty Thurman Herb Adson Frank Adson Jason Lightfoot Jimmy Star Eli Warrior Steven Littlecook Anthony Monoessey Kelly Cable etc. etc. There are too many to mention