Haudenosaunee skirts

Czechy · 01-23-2007, 10:10 AM

About the wrap skirts the Haudenosaunee ladies wear, does it matter to which side the skirt is wrapped? I've seen it wrapped to the left, to the right and even a few made like a regular skirt with no overlap. Was wondering if the direction of the wrap indicated Nation, clan or just personal preference.

Osage skirts are wrapped so the decorated end is on the left. Delaware skirts are wrapped to the right. Wondered if Haudenosaunee skirts had some similar rule?

trob226 · 01-23-2007, 01:26 PM

I've always read that to be proper, the skirt would wrap so the left thigh could be exposed as a work surface, but don't cite me as a particularly educated source. I also have a question - the beadwork on the bottom of the skirt - what size and color of bead is common? They look fairly small and either white or very light shade of some other color.

Blackbear · 01-23-2007, 02:27 PM

Trob, I learned it was the opposite way.. that the skirt wrapped to the left to expose the right knee. More skirts I've seen wrap to the left but I've seen it all the three ways Czechy mentions.

Czechy I think it just depends on who is making who's clothes. To the left is more common, to the right.. I always figured those folks were left handed but it could be just the way they did the wrap.. but even modern wrap skirts normally wrap to the left don't they? And the solid skirts.. more than likely because the person making it did'nt know how to make a wrap skirt is my guess, but then maybe they don't want a wrap skirt either... it does'nt indicate nation or clan that's all I know.
As for the beads, historically it was written microbeads which I would assume meant the old italian beads, but then again it could just mean like a size 11 because were'nt alot of beads back then large? And white was the color always used. But even so that was usually for the intricate scroll and linework, because size 11 and larger was always used for raised beadwork. That gorgeous line and scrollwork was more among the original five while the tuscarora were supposed to have started the raised work. I love how that line and scroll work looks like lace though don't you?

Czechy · 01-23-2007, 03:44 PM

Now what about the overblouse?
I've seen a wide variety of styles. Is this also a matter of personal preference plus the ability of the seamstress making it?

trob226 · 01-23-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbear

Trob, I learned it was the opposite way.. that the skirt wrapped to the left to expose the right knee. More skirts I've seen wrap to the left but I've seen it all the three ways Czechy mentions.

Czechy I think it just depends on who is making who's clothes. To the left is more common, to the right.. I always figured those folks were left handed but it could be just the way they did the wrap.. but even modern wrap skirts normally wrap to the left don't they? And the solid skirts.. more than likely because the person making it did'nt know how to make a wrap skirt is my guess, but then maybe they don't want a wrap skirt either... it does'nt indicate nation or clan that's all I know.
As for the beads, historically it was written microbeads which I would assume meant the old italian beads, but then again it could just mean like a size 11 because were'nt alot of beads back then large? And white was the color always used. But even so that was usually for the intricate scroll and linework, because size 11 and larger was always used for raised beadwork. That gorgeous line and scrollwork was more among the original five while the tuscarora were supposed to have started the raised work. I love how that line and scroll work looks like lace though don't you?

The beadwork on the skirt and leggings is beautiful, I agree. Like Czechy, I wonder about the overshirt - I've seen it flared and not flared, belted and not belted, collar attached and not attached, with cuffs and without - personal preference again? Curiously, the ones I've seen have always been of a pastel color - not deep and not glaring - but I can't always tell what fabric is used.

Blackbear · 01-24-2007, 06:56 AM

When I was girl in the 70's you saw more differences in the overblouse as which nation made it. These days I think they've taken aspects of all the blouses ever made and make them to the taste of the young lady or woman wearing them now. My blouses are cut the way the tuscarora blouses were known with the long back and gathered at the top of the butt in back and in front gathered over the breasts, flared at the bottom with puffy sleeves and a pointed attached collar which I still wear a beaded collar over LOL! Not everyone wore those gorgeous beaded collars all the time. Belts were worn in old timey and it's preference now. yeah.. basically I think it's all personal preference now or just how their family learned to make their clothes.
Calicos are the most popular but you see alot of satin ones now, and you use to see more of the dark calicos in the 70's and 80's, or at least I did. Alot of my family always seemed to want the black calico with red rose buds and I have an overblouse made of that before they quit making it. But now Joannes sells some that's really pretty.. it's just not the old timey rose bud calico.

trob226 · 01-24-2007, 10:53 AM

Thanks, Blackbear. That really helps. It's nice to hear information from someone who's worn the Haudenosaunee garb for a while. BTW, I hope you are doing okay with baby bear and it's not too cold up there in the north country. We just got our first snow here in Maryland - really unusual to be this late.

Blackbear · 01-24-2007, 02:35 PM

as far as I know baby bear 2 is ok ... I'll know more this afternoon when the beta test is finished and they call me with the results. I'm so early on in pregnancy that's all we can do.

It's been warm here... and almost constantly snowing. I'm actually getting sick of snow LOL... in fact there is so much snow that because it's warm, it starts settling and packing down and now the packed down snow is higher than the edge of the porch. Having the driveway plowed is getting expensive.

Czechy · 01-24-2007, 08:27 PM

Blackbear, hope all turns out well with your pregnancy.
Thanks also for your replies here. I figured you might know the answers!

**Eagle Plumes** · 01-25-2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbear

as far as I know baby bear 2 is ok ... I'll know more this afternoon when the beta test is finished and they call me with the results. I'm so early on in pregnancy that's all we can do.

It's been warm here... and almost constantly snowing. I'm actually getting sick of snow LOL... in fact there is so much snow that because it's warm, it starts settling and packing down and now the packed down snow is higher than the edge of the porch. Having the driveway plowed is getting expensive.

Wow did I read rite? Blackbear your going to have a baby? awesome! Are you doing ok? Congrtas to to and the hubby!!

Tooter · 01-27-2007, 08:28 PM

When I was on the dance theatre (AIDT), Irene Fredericks made our clothes and all of us girls' skirts wrapped to the left.

I have an outfit and I made my skirt the same way as Irene made ours. My top is Oneida. My mom went to Oneida for a NIAWA conference and she was talking to this lady about me learning to smoke dance from (Bill Crouse, Kevin & Letha Johnny John, Pete Jimison, and Jeneatte Miller) and she gifted my mom with that top for me. So now I like Smoke Dancing more than fancy shawl dancing.

I wasn't sure what to put on the edges for beadwork so I bought this lace stuff that looks like beadwork and put it around the bottom. Esther Sundown told me that it was ok to use it. She liked it so I feel good about that.

Oh yah, all I got to say is GO VALERIE PARKER!!!!! DANG GIRL!!! GO AHEAD THEN!!!!

trob226 · 01-28-2007, 10:54 AM

Tooter - can you post a photo of yourself in your Oneida regalia?

Tooter · 01-28-2007, 01:11 PM

No, because the only pictures I have are the ones my cousin took of me at our 4th of July Pow Wow. Wished I had a scanner so that I could or at least a digital camera. Sorry!!

indn_grl · 02-19-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czechy

About the wrap skirts the Haudenosaunee ladies wear, does it matter to which side the skirt is wrapped? I've seen it wrapped to the left, to the right and even a few made like a regular skirt with no overlap. Was wondering if the direction of the wrap indicated Nation, clan or just personal preference.

Osage skirts are wrapped so the decorated end is on the left. Delaware skirts are wrapped to the right. Wondered if Haudenosaunee skirts had some similar rule?

Our skirts do have a rule but recently I've become confused.

I was always taught (by an elder) that you wrap it to the right. Sashes tied to the right as well. This signifies life. The only time that it's done the other way is for burial.

Fairly recently I was told (by someone a little older than myself) that your supposed to wrap to the left.

Personally, I think I'll stick to wrapping to my right.

I'm not sure what y'all mean by wrap to the left so the right knee is exposed. I suppose when I dance hard and spin my right leg is exposed more because my flap sometimes lifts and separates....is that what ya mean????

Some skirts/dresses are also made so there is a slit in the middle of the front.

Just a straight skirt is fine as well. I think a lot of people may have made a straight skirt just because they weren't sure which side is right.

Although the skirts I have now are wrapped I'm going to make my next skirt straight. Firstly, when I walk sometimes the material under the fold wraps around my legs and I have to take small steps....I feel like I'm a geisha or something. Another is that when I dance smoke my flap lifts and unfolds so my leg is more exposed. I would prefer the modesty a straight skirt would offer.

trob226 · 02-19-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indn_grl

Although the skirts I have now are wrapped I'm going to make my next skirt straight. Firstly, when I walk sometimes the material under the fold wraps around my legs and I have to take small steps....I feel l

01-23-2007, 10:10 AM	#1 (permalink)
Czechy wrapped in ribbonwork! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Here....for now Posts: 781	Haudenosaunee skirts About the wrap skirts the Haudenosaunee ladies wear, does it matter to which side the skirt is wrapped? I've seen it wrapped to the left, to the right and even a few made like a regular skirt with no overlap. Was wondering if the direction of the wrap indicated Nation, clan or just personal preference. Osage skirts are wrapped so the decorated end is on the left. Delaware skirts are wrapped to the right. Wondered if Haudenosaunee skirts had some similar rule?

01-23-2007, 02:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,618	Trob, I learned it was the opposite way.. that the skirt wrapped to the left to expose the right knee. More skirts I've seen wrap to the left but I've seen it all the three ways Czechy mentions. Czechy I think it just depends on who is making who's clothes. To the left is more common, to the right.. I always figured those folks were left handed but it could be just the way they did the wrap.. but even modern wrap skirts normally wrap to the left don't they? And the solid skirts.. more than likely because the person making it did'nt know how to make a wrap skirt is my guess, but then maybe they don't want a wrap skirt either... it does'nt indicate nation or clan that's all I know. As for the beads, historically it was written microbeads which I would assume meant the old italian beads, but then again it could just mean like a size 11 because were'nt alot of beads back then large? And white was the color always used. But even so that was usually for the intricate scroll and linework, because size 11 and larger was always used for raised beadwork. That gorgeous line and scrollwork was more among the original five while the tuscarora were supposed to have started the raised work. I love how that line and scroll work looks like lace though don't you? __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song. Last edited by Blackbear; 01-23-2007 at 02:29 PM. Reason: forgot to add some info

01-24-2007, 06:56 AM	#6 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,618	When I was girl in the 70's you saw more differences in the overblouse as which nation made it. These days I think they've taken aspects of all the blouses ever made and make them to the taste of the young lady or woman wearing them now. My blouses are cut the way the tuscarora blouses were known with the long back and gathered at the top of the butt in back and in front gathered over the breasts, flared at the bottom with puffy sleeves and a pointed attached collar which I still wear a beaded collar over LOL! Not everyone wore those gorgeous beaded collars all the time. Belts were worn in old timey and it's preference now. yeah.. basically I think it's all personal preference now or just how their family learned to make their clothes. Calicos are the most popular but you see alot of satin ones now, and you use to see more of the dark calicos in the 70's and 80's, or at least I did. Alot of my family always seemed to want the black calico with red rose buds and I have an overblouse made of that before they quit making it. But now Joannes sells some that's really pretty.. it's just not the old timey rose bud calico. __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

01-24-2007, 02:35 PM	#8 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,618	as far as I know baby bear 2 is ok ... I'll know more this afternoon when the beta test is finished and they call me with the results. I'm so early on in pregnancy that's all we can do. It's been warm here... and almost constantly snowing. I'm actually getting sick of snow LOL... in fact there is so much snow that because it's warm, it starts settling and packing down and now the packed down snow is higher than the edge of the porch. Having the driveway plowed is getting expensive. __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

01-27-2007, 08:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tooter Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cherokee, NC Posts: 68	When I was on the dance theatre (AIDT), Irene Fredericks made our clothes and all of us girls' skirts wrapped to the left. I have an outfit and I made my skirt the same way as Irene made ours. My top is Oneida. My mom went to Oneida for a NIAWA conference and she was talking to this lady about me learning to smoke dance from (Bill Crouse, Kevin & Letha Johnny John, Pete Jimison, and Jeneatte Miller) and she gifted my mom with that top for me. So now I like Smoke Dancing more than fancy shawl dancing. I wasn't sure what to put on the edges for beadwork so I bought this lace stuff that looks like beadwork and put it around the bottom. Esther Sundown told me that it was ok to use it. She liked it so I feel good about that. Oh yah, all I got to say is GO VALERIE PARKER!!!!! DANG GIRL!!! GO AHEAD THEN!!!! __________________ Get up and get out!

01-23-2007, 01:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
trob226 Senior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Where my hat is Posts: 698	I've always read that to be proper, the skirt would wrap so the left thigh could be exposed as a work surface, but don't cite me as a particularly educated source. I also have a question - the beadwork on the bottom of the skirt - what size and color of bead is common? They look fairly small and either white or very light shade of some other color.

01-23-2007, 03:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
Czechy wrapped in ribbonwork! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Here....for now Posts: 781	Now what about the overblouse? I've seen a wide variety of styles. Is this also a matter of personal preference plus the ability of the seamstress making it?

01-24-2007, 10:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
trob226 Senior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Where my hat is Posts: 698	Thanks, Blackbear. That really helps. It's nice to hear information from someone who's worn the Haudenosaunee garb for a while. BTW, I hope you are doing okay with baby bear and it's not too cold up there in the north country. We just got our first snow here in Maryland - really unusual to be this late.

01-24-2007, 08:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
Czechy wrapped in ribbonwork! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Here....for now Posts: 781	Blackbear, hope all turns out well with your pregnancy. Thanks also for your replies here. I figured you might know the answers!

01-28-2007, 10:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
trob226 Senior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Where my hat is Posts: 698	Tooter - can you post a photo of yourself in your Oneida regalia?

01-28-2007, 01:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
Tooter Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Cherokee, NC Posts: 68	No, because the only pictures I have are the ones my cousin took of me at our 4th of July Pow Wow. Wished I had a scanner so that I could or at least a digital camera. Sorry!! __________________ Get up and get out!