Judging Women's Smoke Dance

**walela49** · 06-28-2006, 10:09 PM

just wondering if you were judging would you give preference to ladies in traditional smoke dancing clothes over ladies in fancy shawl clothes minus the shawl?...

I would have to say I would...I've never judged smoke dance though (tee hee)

have you ever seen contest rules that don't allow shawlers (sans shawls) to compete? "tradish clothes only" rule??? Is there such a thing? Should there be such a thing???

bvr_wmn · 06-29-2006, 04:34 AM

I definitely would give preference to someone in traditional clothes. Or else would it be allowed for a fancey dancer to dance southern cloth?
Also, I have seen fancy dancers who smoke dance and the foot work is just not there. These dancers are 9 times out of 10, out of beat...and yet they seem to win. Probably cause the judges are all non-iroquois and are only looking at the steps and not listening to the beat.

3ndnbear · 06-29-2006, 09:51 AM

i aggree... to "compete" you should be apropriatly dressed which then clues me that perhaps you are not even of any of the Iroquois Nations.

**Wojapi4Me** · 06-29-2006, 10:54 AM

I've got a question that goes a little deeper than that. Since traditional Iroquoian clothes are preferred for these contests, should only Iroquoian people or those expressly given the right to wear those clothes be allowed to compete? Because right now it seems open to pretty much anyone.

I remember - in the not too distant past - when Smoke Dance came on the scene and everyone (east and west) went crazy over it because it was new and exciting. Then we were simply inundated with it...it became a little much to be honest and I think a lot of people not from the east grew tired of it as it had lost its luster so to speak. But a lot of non-Iroquoian people do enter these contests still. Is this frowned upon? And if so, why?

It seems to me that you guys sort of threw it out there and in your zest to see it become a full-fledged pow wow category gave it away to all nations basically. At least that's my views.

3ndnbear · 06-29-2006, 03:09 PM

some very valid points singerdad... i wouldnt like to see it become pan-indian... i think the craze came from a certain person who used to do shows all over the coast then country and then it caught interest,
i'll be totally honest and tell you that i personally would be upset if i were beat out by a non-iroquois person that danced flashy opposed to appropriate... i'm sure those who's people originated jingle, chicken, round bustle ect, feel the same way... however, at the moment, i'm not opposed to it being competition in the ny area because you will get judges that know what to look for and dancers that know what and how to dance.
but we must remember that it's a SOCIAL dance and perhaps if it becomes to "watered down" that poeple should think about it and return it to social and not competition...
just my two beads... lol...

~*~MizzQaqimat~*~ · 07-01-2006, 07:02 AM

Just adding another question to it...if you're non Iroquois, but you wanted to dance smoke dance, socially, just for fun, would you think its ok? And, what would you view as ok for that person to wear during it. Like, would you think its ok to wear the smoke dance regalia if you're non-Iroquois? Also, do you think its ok if someone in a jingle dress goes out to smoke dance?

Strugganona · 07-03-2006, 05:00 PM

Its true that one should be dressed in the outfit that the category requires. I mean think about it- like everyone has posted already- you wouldn't go out to dance Jingle in a fancy shawl ensemb...
I don't think that it's wrong for Non-Iroquois folks to dress in Iroquois Manner and dance in the Smoke Dance. BUT, I would hope that they actually knew how to dance because I see a lot of IROQUOIS AND NON-IROQUOIS getting away with bad footwork...and the judges don't take note of it beacuse they don't care, know the person, don't know to take note of it, or who knows what. Thats real cheap when those folks are selected as winners over others who danced correctly. This really bothers me because than everyone thinks that they should watch the wrong people to see how smoke dance it done properly. There's things like this in all categories, though. That's when the split between Contemporary and Old Style emerges...
Also, I should put that Smoke Dance is a social dance, which means that anyone can join in. If it is competition though, than it should be looked at like any other category, where you have to learn how to perform appropriately-
I have also heard that the "slow war dance" should not be included...there's a lot of reasoning behind that, but mostly because one would want to keep the sacred ceremonial things away from public competition...Just wanted to add that on...

WhoMe · 07-03-2006, 05:36 PM

The first time I ever saw smoke dancing was at the Niagara Falls Turtle Powwow back in the 80's. I was really impressed. There was a large group of men singers seated in a circle. They took turns passing a water drum, two rattles and starting the songs.

As soon as they started singing young and old alike came from the audience to dance and the arena was full of people with and without Iroquois clothing. But everyone knew the songs.

At one point they invited visitors to the arena for a couples dance... Iroquois style. There sure are some purdy Iroquois girls!!! *L and I was asked by one to participate from the 6 Nations Reserve.

It wasn't until the late nineties did I see smoke dancing again. Yes, the guy who did shows and announcing was the guy that introduced it to popular mainstream powwowing.

I have had the pleasure to join in when they invited visitors at the Mohegan Sun Powwow, Schmitzun and the Gathering of Nations. The above announcer and Dennis Bowen both commented on the microphone that I did a pretty good job!

*L

Blackbear · 07-03-2006, 09:35 PM

I would tend to give preference but then there are non -iroquois that compete and that's fine and I would rather see them dressed in their own garb than ours. It's not a ceremonial dance, it's not even exactly a traditional dance because it's so new... and I've seen my own people competing in their fancy shawl clothes.

smoke_dancer_20 · 07-08-2006, 01:18 AM

sge:noh swagwegoh, here's what i think !...LOL... smoke dance ain't a " iroquois social dance" but iroquois dance it and socialize with one another and whoever else is dancing it!....THE SMOKE DANCE i see is Contemporary style! if anyone thinks it should be old style ~! then maybe we should all put our rised beadwork and new stuff away!...and get out an all buck skin get'up!and no headress' just the old mohawk cut!..LMFAO!. !...NOT picking on anyone now!..i mean!. guys wearing some shiney shirts like their ready to dance disco!....LOL....when i was told to get up there and dance i just went !...no questions asked !...thats where i learnd to dance! i was never told thats not the right way or thats wrong how your dancing !...just go out there and dance !.....if it looks good then so be it!...if your going nutts and the judges look at you and put you on their score sheet!...so be it!....who cares !...just go out there and dance!...have fun!..alot of people forget to have fun when they are competing in smoke dance!......

as for non iroquois dancing this dance ! GO 4 IT!... i wouldn't be mad if you beat me!..LOL...i'd just stand there and look at you like what the heck!..LOL..j/k.... i've seen a few different people/ non-iroquois dance smoke dance!....and some are really good!...that Yazzie guy is a good smoke dancer!.. that chick that won the "all-around special" at toronto powwow this past year!.. was a damn good smoke dancer!....

as for taking away from sacredness! of our ceremonies!...i think the new style of this slow war dance is way different then what is done for our ceremony!..u know what one i'm speaking of!...whats more sacred then the eagle that sits atop our tree of peace?.???? and here we are wearing the feathers at shows/powwows and in public events!...should these feathers only be for longhouse use ???? ( 4 iroquois) why would we do such a thing??...just something to think about!

and i dis-like when any of the smoke dance singers sing the songs from the ceremony set of songs!.....and i admit that i have snag a few !...i'm not perfect!...that when i slip up!....LOL...

now don't all jump on me at once!!! LMFAO

oneida_huny · 07-08-2006, 08:26 PM

Well said Sir Cam! i agree wit u 100%. preach on! lol

seneca*one · 07-18-2006, 12:23 AM

Well said mr. hill! BRAVO!!! i guess! who the heck wears shiny shirts??? what's that all about? ain't nothing traditional/old style bout that!!?? LMFAO!!! sike! well..hope to see you bust it out and show all dese newcomers to smoke dance what it's all about dis weekend!

06-28-2006, 10:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
walela49 the legal plumes lady! Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: http://www.walela49.com Posts: 1,144	Judging Women's Smoke Dance just wondering if you were judging would you give preference to ladies in traditional smoke dancing clothes over ladies in fancy shawl clothes minus the shawl?... I would have to say I would...I've never judged smoke dance though (tee hee) have you ever seen contest rules that don't allow shawlers (sans shawls) to compete? "tradish clothes only" rule??? Is there such a thing? Should there be such a thing??? __________________ Click here to order your custom LEGAL PLUMES today at http://www.walela49.com See my trading post ads See my photo gallery See walela49's myspace page

06-29-2006, 04:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
bvr_wmn Junior Dancer Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 100	I definitely would give preference to someone in traditional clothes. Or else would it be allowed for a fancey dancer to dance southern cloth? Also, I have seen fancy dancers who smoke dance and the foot work is just not there. These dancers are 9 times out of 10, out of beat...and yet they seem to win. Probably cause the judges are all non-iroquois and are only looking at the steps and not listening to the beat. Last edited by bvr_wmn; 06-29-2006 at 04:37 AM.

06-29-2006, 09:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
3ndnbear smoke & ladies tradish Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: da:d wah ta:sa' DC Koh Posts: 330	i aggree... to "compete" you should be apropriatly dressed which then clues me that perhaps you are not even of any of the Iroquois Nations. __________________

06-29-2006, 10:54 AM	#4 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,493	I've got a question that goes a little deeper than that. Since traditional Iroquoian clothes are preferred for these contests, should only Iroquoian people or those expressly given the right to wear those clothes be allowed to compete? Because right now it seems open to pretty much anyone. I remember - in the not too distant past - when Smoke Dance came on the scene and everyone (east and west) went crazy over it because it was new and exciting. Then we were simply inundated with it...it became a little much to be honest and I think a lot of people not from the east grew tired of it as it had lost its luster so to speak. But a lot of non-Iroquoian people do enter these contests still. Is this frowned upon? And if so, why? It seems to me that you guys sort of threw it out there and in your zest to see it become a full-fledged pow wow category gave it away to all nations basically. At least that's my views. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

06-29-2006, 03:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
3ndnbear smoke & ladies tradish Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: da:d wah ta:sa' DC Koh Posts: 330	some very valid points singerdad... i wouldnt like to see it become pan-indian... i think the craze came from a certain person who used to do shows all over the coast then country and then it caught interest, i'll be totally honest and tell you that i personally would be upset if i were beat out by a non-iroquois person that danced flashy opposed to appropriate... i'm sure those who's people originated jingle, chicken, round bustle ect, feel the same way... however, at the moment, i'm not opposed to it being competition in the ny area because you will get judges that know what to look for and dancers that know what and how to dance. but we must remember that it's a SOCIAL dance and perhaps if it becomes to "watered down" that poeple should think about it and return it to social and not competition... just my two beads... lol... __________________

07-01-2006, 07:02 AM	#6 (permalink)
~~MizzQaqimat~~ Jingle Dancer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Presidio of Monterey, California Posts: 389	Just adding another question to it...if you're non Iroquois, but you wanted to dance smoke dance, socially, just for fun, would you think its ok? And, what would you view as ok for that person to wear during it. Like, would you think its ok to wear the smoke dance regalia if you're non-Iroquois? Also, do you think its ok if someone in a jingle dress goes out to smoke dance? __________________ TARHEEL BORN, TARHEEL BRED, WHEN I DIE I'LL BE TARHEEL DEAD! MizzQaqimat's Space

07-03-2006, 05:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
Strugganona Struggs not Drugs Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 716 337 Posts: 168	Its true that one should be dressed in the outfit that the category requires. I mean think about it- like everyone has posted already- you wouldn't go out to dance Jingle in a fancy shawl ensemb... I don't think that it's wrong for Non-Iroquois folks to dress in Iroquois Manner and dance in the Smoke Dance. BUT, I would hope that they actually knew how to dance because I see a lot of IROQUOIS AND NON-IROQUOIS getting away with bad footwork...and the judges don't take note of it beacuse they don't care, know the person, don't know to take note of it, or who knows what. Thats real cheap when those folks are selected as winners over others who danced correctly. This really bothers me because than everyone thinks that they should watch the wrong people to see how smoke dance it done properly. There's things like this in all categories, though. That's when the split between Contemporary and Old Style emerges... Also, I should put that Smoke Dance is a social dance, which means that anyone can join in. If it is competition though, than it should be looked at like any other category, where you have to learn how to perform appropriately- I have also heard that the "slow war dance" should not be included...there's a lot of reasoning behind that, but mostly because one would want to keep the sacred ceremonial things away from public competition...Just wanted to add that on... __________________ "Nobody's perfect, and I stand accused."--GREEN DAY!

07-03-2006, 05:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,433	The first time I ever saw smoke dancing was at the Niagara Falls Turtle Powwow back in the 80's. I was really impressed. There was a large group of men singers seated in a circle. They took turns passing a water drum, two rattles and starting the songs. As soon as they started singing young and old alike came from the audience to dance and the arena was full of people with and without Iroquois clothing. But everyone knew the songs. At one point they invited visitors to the arena for a couples dance... Iroquois style. There sure are some purdy Iroquois girls!!! L and I was asked by one to participate from the 6 Nations Reserve. It wasn't until the late nineties did I see smoke dancing again. Yes, the guy who did shows and announcing was the guy that introduced it to popular mainstream powwowing. I have had the pleasure to join in when they invited visitors at the Mohegan Sun Powwow, Schmitzun and the Gathering of Nations. The above announcer and Dennis Bowen both commented on the microphone that I did a pretty good job! L __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

07-03-2006, 09:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
Blackbear Gone Fishing Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,514	I would tend to give preference but then there are non -iroquois that compete and that's fine and I would rather see them dressed in their own garb than ours. It's not a ceremonial dance, it's not even exactly a traditional dance because it's so new... and I've seen my own people competing in their fancy shawl clothes. __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Video002-1.flv

07-08-2006, 01:18 AM	#10 (permalink)
smoke_dancer_20 yohoh-yo:yanehiyo-ohho-!! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ohswe:ge^ "Six Nations rez" Posts: 327	my 2 centz sge:noh swagwegoh, here's what i think !...LOL... smoke dance ain't a " iroquois social dance" but iroquois dance it and socialize with one another and whoever else is dancing it!....THE SMOKE DANCE i see is Contemporary style! if anyone thinks it should be old style ~! then maybe we should all put our rised beadwork and new stuff away!...and get out an all buck skin get'up!and no headress' just the old mohawk cut!..LMFAO!. !...NOT picking on anyone now!..i mean!. guys wearing some shiney shirts like their ready to dance disco!....LOL....when i was told to get up there and dance i just went !...no questions asked !...thats where i learnd to dance! i was never told thats not the right way or thats wrong how your dancing !...just go out there and dance !.....if it looks good then so be it!...if your going nutts and the judges look at you and put you on their score sheet!...so be it!....who cares !...just go out there and dance!...have fun!..alot of people forget to have fun when they are competing in smoke dance!...... as for non iroquois dancing this dance ! GO 4 IT!... i wouldn't be mad if you beat me!..LOL...i'd just stand there and look at you like what the heck!..LOL..j/k.... i've seen a few different people/ non-iroquois dance smoke dance!....and some are really good!...that Yazzie guy is a good smoke dancer!.. that chick that won the "all-around special" at toronto powwow this past year!.. was a damn good smoke dancer!.... as for taking away from sacredness! of our ceremonies!...i think the new style of this slow war dance is way different then what is done for our ceremony!..u know what one i'm speaking of!...whats more sacred then the eagle that sits atop our tree of peace?.???? and here we are wearing the feathers at shows/powwows and in public events!...should these feathers only be for longhouse use ???? ( 4 iroquois) why would we do such a thing??...just something to think about! and i dis-like when any of the smoke dance singers sing the songs from the ceremony set of songs!.....and i admit that i have snag a few !...i'm not perfect!...that when i slip up!....LOL... now don't all jump on me at once!!! LMFAO __________________ -[]-[ ]-/\-[ ]-[]-

07-08-2006, 08:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
oneida_huny Smoke Dancer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: at a longhouse near u! Posts: 156	right on the money Well said Sir Cam! i agree wit u 100%. preach on! lol __________________ ~~~~~U juss Hate Me Cuz U Ain't Me!~~~~~

07-18-2006, 12:23 AM	#12 (permalink)
senecaone ~Retired smokedancer* Join Date: May 2003 Location: A Rez called CATTARAUGUS! Posts: 62	Well said mr. hill! BRAVO!!! i guess! who the heck wears shiny shirts??? what's that all about? ain't nothing traditional/old style bout that!!?? LMFAO!!! sike! well..hope to see you bust it out and show all dese newcomers to smoke dance what it's all about dis weekend! __________________ ~+ +~ Just breakin it down!