Wicaglata Forum

[singfromDheart]

Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4

The way I see it is this. Who ever is part of the drum group, practices with the drum group etc, they get paid. Anyone who is standing in (Women) for the weekend or sitting in (Men) for the weekend, is a guest at that drum & should be honoured to be able to sing with that drum group, but does not get any cash becasue they didn't put in any of the hard work that got that drum group to where they are today. When it comes to Women who are related to the drum group it's up to the group, in your case your family is getting a cut of the money because your husband is a singer, so I mean you kinda are both getting the money anyway, and your right, that's not what it is supposed to be about. I have seen people like you mentioned, & they bring a bitter taste after a great weekend.
The drum group I sing with has a strict rule. The envelope gets opened at the next drum practice. And our envelopes from dancing get opened off the grounds (these tend to be for gas home & road food). If the kids open up their envelopes before they are allowed then their money goes to gas. (if they follow our rules then it's their spending money at the next powwow) It just looks tacky seeing people counting their cash. Anyway back to the drum money being opened at the next drum group, this also works well when guests start looking for a cut, they get told the rule & that's often the end of it.
Suzze

That's a pretty neat rule of thumb that you guys have for your group. Our guys live all over the place in different states so drum practices are unheard of! We just kind of all get together at the powwwows we are either host or contestig at, but definitely the $ issue can tend to make people get crazy I guess. And i just think it is funny when i'm handed $, it just feels weird to me!!! But that's just me, I just can't beieve that ladies act that way over the $ but I guess everyone has a different mentality, they learned differntly or whatever. I just don't think that $ should ever get in the way of why people came together in the first place, because they loved to sing!

[hogbackoutlaw]

2007 Navajo Nation Fair Contest Pow-wow
September 6, 7, 8, 9, 2007
WINDOWROCK, ARIZONA, USA

Womens Back-up (wicaglata) Singing Contest...
1st $1000
2nd $800
3rd $600
4th $400
5th $200

Come On Down To The Southwest...see You There...pce

[singfromDheart]

Will that be northern and southern together? Sounds like fun, I wish we could go! What are the max and minimum number of ladies allowed to a group?

[singfromDheart]

Okay, to try and keep things going, and at the expense of sounding like a total hag, I'm gonna put this out there: What do you all think about guys from the group you sing with inviting women that none of you know to come and sing with you and the girls for the weekend or for good? This seems to be happening to us, theres this chic who has been coming around that one of the guys invited because I guess she practices with his little group he teaches on the side, and since he sings with us, I guess so does she? I don't really care, but it just seems odd because she's not with any of the guys, she just kind of showed up one weekend and puts her chair and kids up right behind our drum, I mean literally right behind one our guys chairs. In my mind that spot is reserved for their families, wives, moms, sisters, regular backup singers with the group. She's not friendly at all, she doesn't come and shake hands, introduce herself, nada, like I said just kinda showed up one powwow and from then on sets up her shade and everything right next to our guys, literally connecting to thier shade. Honestly it's kinda getting on my nerves. I know how it is, you wanna sing and all, but I have learned to at least acknowlegde the other lady singers when singing at another drum, smile ask if you can sing, or just come sing, but don't glom on to the group from then on and show up and plant yourself right in back of our men all weekend. It's inappropriate, I hope she never plants herself in back of my man all weekend. Honestly I guess I am pretty irritated, even though I know I should just be open and welcoming, why am I getting all territorial? I guess because this guy in our group just led her to believe she now sings with us, I mean how would he feel if I just went and found some random guy wanted to sing with us and just gave him a place at the drum without asking or introducing at all? I'm on the verge of talking to him, but I know my husband will get mad at me, I've talked to him about it, but he's like yeah it is kinda weird, but he doesn't involve himself any further. I am getting myself mad right now! Yeah, so what do ya thinK!?

[kiyaanii mom]

Originally Posted by singfromDheart

Okay, to try and keep things going, and at the expense of sounding like a total hag, I'm gonna put this out there: What do you all think about guys from the group you sing with inviting women that none of you know to come and sing with you and the girls for the weekend or for good? This seems to be happening to us, theres this chic who has been coming around that one of the guys invited because I guess she practices with his little group he teaches on the side, and since he sings with us, I guess so does she? I don't really care, but it just seems odd because she's not with any of the guys, she just kind of showed up one weekend and puts her chair and kids up right behind our drum, I mean literally right behind one our guys chairs. In my mind that spot is reserved for their families, wives, moms, sisters, regular backup singers with the group. She's not friendly at all, she doesn't come and shake hands, introduce herself, nada, like I said just kinda showed up one powwow and from then on sets up her shade and everything right next to our guys, literally connecting to thier shade. Honestly it's kinda getting on my nerves. I know how it is, you wanna sing and all, but I have learned to at least acknowlegde the other lady singers when singing at another drum, smile ask if you can sing, or just come sing, but don't glom on to the group from then on and show up and plant yourself right in back of our men all weekend. It's inappropriate, I hope she never plants herself in back of my man all weekend. Honestly I guess I am pretty irritated, even though I know I should just be open and welcoming, why am I getting all territorial? I guess because this guy in our group just led her to believe she now sings with us, I mean how would he feel if I just went and found some random guy wanted to sing with us and just gave him a place at the drum without asking or introducing at all? I'm on the verge of talking to him, but I know my husband will get mad at me, I've talked to him about it, but he's like yeah it is kinda weird, but he doesn't involve himself any further. I am getting myself mad right now! Yeah, so what do ya thinK!?

I see your point. I think it would be weird. I think singing back up in Oklahoma might be different then other places, cuz if there is a head singer with an open drum, then it's ok to just go out and sing. I was told by a good friend that the only way to learn is to go out and do it. I don't live in Oklahoma any more.

But if a drum group is contesting or has a known group of back up I wouldn't dare go just set up as a back up singer for the whole night. It's rude. Kind of like walking into someone's house and eating our of their fridge and sleeping in their bed uninvited.

The other reason I wouldn't do that is what if I sound terrible. I have heard some women singing so off key at a well known drum. And I feel sorry for the guys singing, cuz it reflects on them. I would hate to be that person. This lady must not sound too bad or the guys would be trying to get rid of her. ha ha

[kiyaanii mom]

Originally Posted by singfromDheart

I haven't been able to post for a few days due to a computer glich, but first off I wanted to ask you ladies what your thoughts are on bieng paid after a weekend of singing. I have never heard of women expecting to be paid after singing until a few years ago when my husband's group started getting out there a little more. I personally never would have expected to be paid even after the drum group won a contest. I always just sang because I love it and love and support my husband and brothers. But then I came across ladies acting like dudes and standing there with their hand out after singing with us for the weekend and wanting their "cut". I don't know, maybe i'm just too oldfashioned or something! I can see if it is a contest specifically for back-up singing, but i just don't think that the ladies should stand there with their hand out especially if you were a guest singing with our group for the weekend. I don't know, what do you all think? I have even known women who get upset and mad when they don't get paid or get paid enough! To me that is craziness. A lady should sing to support her family/friends (whatever the case may be), because they love to sing or they love the songs that are being sung, it's just like lu-luing, you do it because you want to show honor to that song or you drum group, it's an ancient expression from deep in a lady's heart or spirit to show strength, love, pride, honor. I know that's why I sing, not to just show and get paid!

A "lady" would never expect anything.

[song_bird_woman]

Originally Posted by singfromDheart

I haven't been able to post for a few days due to a computer glich, but first off I wanted to ask you ladies what your thoughts are on bieng paid after a weekend of singing. I have never heard of women expecting to be paid after singing until a few years ago when my husband's group started getting out there a little more. I personally never would have expected to be paid even after the drum group won a contest. I always just sang because I love it and love and support my husband and brothers. But then I came across ladies acting like dudes and standing there with their hand out after singing with us for the weekend and wanting their "cut". I don't know, maybe i'm just too oldfashioned or something! I can see if it is a contest specifically for back-up singing, but i just don't think that the ladies should stand there with their hand out especially if you were a guest singing with our group for the weekend. I don't know, what do you all think? I have even known women who get upset and mad when they don't get paid or get paid enough! To me that is craziness. A lady should sing to support her family/friends (whatever the case may be), because they love to sing or they love the songs that are being sung, it's just like lu-luing, you do it because you want to show honor to that song or you drum group, it's an ancient expression from deep in a lady's heart or spirit to show strength, love, pride, honor. I know that's why I sing, not to just show and get paid!

I think that's tacky ("show and get paid") or be standing their with their hand out waiting to be paid! Women should sing from da heart and NOT expect anything. I would think it would be up to da lead singer to honor this person singing back-up and give this individual sum'n for support/helping'em out. Just my 2 centz and how I was brought up. Just "nervy" to stand there with hand out expecting 2 be paid (shakes head). *LOL*

[Lakota Wiyan]

I guess it must be different in my tribe, because we NEVER would even consider it strange for a lady we dont even know and sang with us. The whole concept of the wicaglata was for women to "fan the fire" in the men singing, and its just an honor for the drum to have a lady come and share her talent. Maybe its the concept of division, "Us" vs "Them", or competition, that brought on this attitude that a woman has to "belong" to someone or in some way be attached to the drum in order for them to be "welcomed". I might be overstepping here, but I think thats a very harmful way to look at the wicaglata. We should all be proud of our drums, and feel compelled to honor a certain song because it might have special meaning to us. Maybe at home, our drums just arent so competitive to be structured and rigid about things like this. I encourage ALL women to come and sing with me, and I would hope that you all would welcome ME to sing and honor YOUR drums, and your men, if I happen to know the song..

TY for listening!

[ndngirl70]

Originally Posted by Lakota Wiyan

I guess it must be different in my tribe, because we NEVER would even consider it strange for a lady we dont even know and sang with us. The whole concept of the wicaglata was for women to "fan the fire" in the men singing, and its just an honor for the drum to have a lady come and share her talent. Maybe its the concept of division, "Us" vs "Them", or competition, that brought on this attitude that a woman has to "belong" to someone or in some way be attached to the drum in order for them to be "welcomed". I might be overstepping here, but I think thats a very harmful way to look at the wicaglata. We should all be proud of our drums, and feel compelled to honor a certain song because it might have special meaning to us. Maybe at home, our drums just arent so competitive to be structured and rigid about things like this. I encourage ALL women to come and sing with me, and I would hope that you all would welcome ME to sing and honor YOUR drums, and your men, if I happen to know the song..

TY for listening!

I totally agree. I don't "belong" to any particular group right now but I did sing with one regularly for about 10 years. I never minded when someone came to sing with us. Even now , I still sing with a few different groups if we happen to be at the same place. Sure, it's polite to acknowlegde the other women or say thanks after, but I don't think it's much different than guys sitting with other groups.

[singfromDheart]

Okay, you ladies have made a good point and have caused me to take a step back and realize my whole attitude toward this situation. Although it is a little strange to me that this girl sits directly behind some of our guys that don't even know her, it could be that she doesn't know any better, and if it doesn't bother the guys I guess it shouldn't bother me. Just thought the whole thing was a little strange. And yes during contesting it was an issue. I have no problem with anyone coming and singing with us on regular songs, honor songs, memorial songs, if I felt led to go and sing at another drum or know the song being sung and I happen to really like that particular song, I will go and sing also, but parking my seat right behind the singers all weekend? I don't think so! But hey, different strokes for different folks huh?

[JingleFever8301]

Originally Posted by singfromDheart

Okay, you ladies have made a good point and have caused me to take a step back and realize my whole attitude toward this situation. Although it is a little strange to me that this girl sits directly behind some of our guys that don't even know her, it could be that she doesn't know any better, and if it doesn't bother the guys I guess it shouldn't bother me. Just thought the whole thing was a little strange. And yes during contesting it was an issue. I have no problem with anyone coming and singing with us on regular songs, honor songs, memorial songs, if I felt led to go and sing at another drum or know the song being sung and I happen to really like that particular song, I will go and sing also, but parking my seat right behind the singers all weekend? I don't think so! But hey, different strokes for different folks huh?

personally, that would be weird and awkward to me too - so i see where youre coming from singinfromDheart. back up singin has become much more prevalent at pow wows, i remember when i was younger, the majority of back up singers were with southern drums and just a few northern drums, now just about every drum has em...off the subject...but yea, if youre going to back up with a group you should at least acknowledge all the singers - guys and the other back up singers - and if youre camped out behind the drum you should be a little friendly - lol - thats what i would do and would expect from others.

along with the gettin paid part - i think some drum groups are recognizing their back up as equal singers deserving equal cuts, this isnt always the case, but i know of a few drums that do acknowledge the ladies this way, in the same respect, the ladies are present for all songs, drum roll calls, just as the rest of the singers are required to do. however, a woman should feel honored to be back up singin, and not expect to be paid anything, but if ya do than thats just an added perk. lol.

[stomp]

OK how about a good singer joinin us ladies and she comes in before we do on one of our own songs?
She would come sing with us just every once in awhile, and never during contest. I love her and her voice, and just let it be. One of our other women took her aside one day and had a long talk with her...she has never sung with us again. Makes me sad. Some things you just can't take back. If it had been an issue with me, I would have spoken to our lead singer and left it up to him. Wouldn't that be the right way to handle it?

[singfromDheart]

^^I think that is really disrespectful. If you are a guest singing with other ladies of that particular group, come in with the rest of the ladies. It doesn't matter if you have the ability to come in earlier or hear where you think the ladies should come in, you come in with the rest of the ladies. We have had this same thing happen a few years ago. This girl who could sing her buns off would come and sing with us, she had a wicked voice, but did that all the time. It's just not a nice thing to do and our other lady singers were getting really pissed at her to say the least! It just came off as a whole attitude of arrogance and disrespect which is not desirable in a person who is supposed to be lending their voice. It's not one person that should stand out, in a group, you sing TOGETHER as a group and follow the lead of the leaders of the group. I think that it should be up to the lead singer of the group to address problems like that, I do think that it can be said in a way that is both honest but gentle enough not to hurt the person's feelings. If it's done that way then the person should be able to understand and not be offended, if they are offended then what can ya do?