dealing with rude spectators/photographers

tsuj510 · 07-31-2006, 08:19 PM

I had a question about this and wondered what/how you all deal with it.

I think a lot of us can relate to this.

Yer at a powwow and the MC and committee have made it clearer that crystal that no pictures are to be taken at a given time.

John Q. White Man decides that that rule certainly does not apply to him, and keeps on snapping away and for whatever reason, the MC or security does not stop him.

Do you guys say anything or let it go?

What if its a person who you think may not understand English, let's just for arguement sake say Asian tourists..

How do you all handle it? Do you call in security? Let an Elder address it?

I try to be patient, but it can be tough...

WaDo for your time and input.

notsocheese · 08-01-2006, 12:49 AM

No pics to be taken at all at a powwow? I've heard Mc's tell people no flash photography during contests because it distracts dancers.

tsuj510 · 08-01-2006, 01:00 AM

Uh...

No. My post said at certain times, not no photos at all..

Just curious how you guys would handle that....

notsocheese · 08-01-2006, 01:09 AM

My apologies.. I misread your post. In my experiences at powwows I've just seen (and heard) the Mc tell spectators to not take photos. Usually it just stops and thats that. Oh yeah and sometimes the AD's will tell the people who continue to photograph to stop.

TKMJ Productions · 08-01-2006, 07:50 AM

I've been at a lot of powwows over the years. It seems there is always at least one spectator at every powwow that does not listen or doesn't care and takes that picture at the wrong time. Some times it is just let go. Other times, the spectator is asked to stop and nothing else is done. There have been times over the years that I have seen a camera taken away and the film removed. I have also seen spectators with cameras tossed out to the parking lot.

With the use of digital cameras, I have seen security ask the spectator to erase the picture from the memory. If the picture taking was an honest mistake or the spectator didn't hear the the MC announce "no pictures", the spectator will usually comply when asked to erase the picture. If the spectator refuses, the camera should be taken away by security, the picture erased, and then returned to the spectator. If the spectator has a problem with that, it's "There's the door! See Ya!".

I have also seen dancers, security, staff members and even other spectators who will put their hand in front of the lense of someone taking a picture at the wrong time. The suprise of the hand with an explanation will usually stop the picture taking or someone has a great shot of someones hand.

That's what I have seen from "mild to extreem". My personal oponion is that the comittee should address the problem and decide what should be done long before the powwow starts. Security should then be instructed on how to handle the problem.

Powwows have always had this problem as long as I could remember. Any way the problem is handled, It should be done in a good way on your part reguardless of what the spectators does. For that one spectator that''s a butt head, the gate is a good place to show him on the way out.

For those people who do not speak our language, they take the same chance as everone else. Remember this country is "Equal Opportunity, It's the Law". Bring a translator friend.

My responce may seem a little cold. Sorry about that. If someone can't or won't respect our ways, they don't belong at our powwows.

littleredblanket · 08-01-2006, 10:43 AM

if i see a spectator disregarding the MC's request I will usually try to respectfully tell the person taking the photo to stop and give them an explanation as to why they are not allowed to take pictures at that given time. If they refuse to comply still I will let security or the AD know and let them handle it. I just refuse to get into a knock down drag out fight with a spectator who is ignorant of any and all common sense or social skills. Its just a waste of my time.

Redstone · 08-01-2006, 01:04 PM

Interesting topic. I agree with most of you, sometimes a word in a good way is the best route to go and a lot of patience. Most of the time it works but then you get the person who occassionally doesnt' care. In that case I would rather they leave if they can't respect the request.

I might add and I think this was in another topic from Wakalapi, just two weeks ago at a powwow, a photographer did some photographing dancers and later I find that these pictures were on their professional website for sale at $1.75 a shot. Now I don't mind someone taking a picture for personal use, but I do think it is wrong to take a person's picture for profit.

I've debated about writing the person and asking them to remove my picture as I feel strongly about this. I also think it is ripping people off, and to much of that has gone on in our community. If you plan to take pictures for a profit or make money off it, at least ask the person you are taking a picture of if they agree to that.

It would be nice to hear what the rest of you think on this as well.

Wyldwolf52 · 08-01-2006, 01:33 PM

The last Pow Wow put on by the Southern Oregon Indian Center. It was The Veterens- Arrangements had been made to have 2 photographers, one to film, the other with a camera, to take pictures of the entire pow wow. Grand entry included. I have been taught no pictures of Ceromonies. When I went to ask why, I was told that is the way they wanted it. I went around and asked a few folk what they thought, they just shrugged and said I don't know.
I was very disappointing. I left very early.
They are having another this weekend. Rogue Valley, is a special one for most. It takes places on the grounds where they were once held Native American prisoners.
Springdeer

Nezbah · 08-01-2006, 02:21 PM

Ohhhhhh and same goes for newspapers!! Just recently I found a photo of my 6 year old son in the newspaper and my neice. It was in the front page, yeah its nice to be recognized but do these people have any type of respect for the little ones? Yeah they are cute but man, there are many many sicko's out there (yes, they had his name on the front page too). On top of that, they had it on their internet!! Plus, they were charging to buy the photo, no emails or phone calls to ask me permission to post these photos or even compensation. I almost fell off my chair!! I called the editor and filed a complaint. Apparently they had a deal with the committee but non of us dancers were notified that these people were going to exploit our children and make a profit off it!! Ugggggggh, it just made me sick. There is also a molester around his school that is attacking little boys this past year (aka the Arroya Molester here in Albuquerque). So far he has molested 3 boys from his school in the daylight. If these committee's are inviting newspapers, press, etc to come photograph our children we should at least sign some sort of consent form. I don't know how you other parents feel about this, but I will protect my son as best as I can. Luckily they took the picture off but it was nearly 3 months too late. I didn't even know about it until then (friends ended up telling me about it later).

I swear......some people!!

paintedsun22 · 08-01-2006, 02:40 PM

It bothers me most when people come up to me and start touching my regalia and taking pics of me without my permission. Then they start talking over my head about my stuff like I'm not even there.... I'm not on display!!! It gets real personal then....

Hazben · 08-01-2006, 02:46 PM

Lot of good points here.
I was under the impression that to publish somebody's picture online, you must have a signed release. I may be wrong?
I also recently saw a "professional photographer" at a powwow taking shots of Grand Entry. I went to the MC and was told that he had permission. I elected not to dance.
I understand people needing to make a living, but respect for ceremony and dancers needs to be a part of that.
Many spectators don't know the proper protocols and many don't listen to the MC. Sometimes PA systems aren't that good, or there's a lot of other noise and distractions. That's not a reason to let it slide. It has been my experience that usually an explanation in a good way takes care of it. If that doesn't do it, the AD can and should handle it. Every time something like this happens, it's a chance to raise someone's understanding. That's a good thing.

**billyjoejimbob** · 08-01-2006, 05:55 PM

The problem is that public powwows are just that...public.

An MC would have to announce 'no pics' every 5 minutes in order to get everyone coming in.

As far as people still taking photos when they arent supposed to, alert the AD or just tell them yourself.

Or just do what Crow Fair does, charge people $ for a permit.

But most of the time if you just look at the people taking photos, they ARENT doig it for money, they are doing it to say the took a photo of a REAL LIVE NDN. You know who Im talking about. The old men in khaki shorts and black socks and the women with BIG brimmed hats.

Maybe post a disclaimer at the entrance or on the flyers.

But there is always the guy with the camera belt and bag with 3 cameras around his neck.

TKMJ Productions · 08-01-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redstone

.

I might add and I think this was in another topic from Wakalapi, just two weeks ago at a powwow, a photographer did some photographing dancers and later I find that these pictures were on their professional website for sale at $1.75 a shot. Now I don't mind someone taking a picture for personal use, but I do think it is wrong to take a person's picture for profit.

I've debated about writing the person and asking them to remove my picture as I feel strongly about this. I also think it is ripping people off, and to much of that has gone on in our community. If you plan to take pictures for a profit or make money off it, at least ask the person you are taking a picture of if they agree to that.

It would be nice to hear what the rest of you think on this as well.

Unfortunatly, there is not much you can really do in this case except ask the photographer to remove the shot from the web. According to "white law" the picture is the property of the photographer not the subject.

A powwow comittee may have a chance in court if a sign is visible at the entrance to the powwow warning photographers that they are not allowed to take pictures for sale.

I'm no lawyer however this is what I have been told.

07-31-2006, 08:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
tsuj510 Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 420	dealing with rude spectators/photographers I had a question about this and wondered what/how you all deal with it. I think a lot of us can relate to this. Yer at a powwow and the MC and committee have made it clearer that crystal that no pictures are to be taken at a given time. John Q. White Man decides that that rule certainly does not apply to him, and keeps on snapping away and for whatever reason, the MC or security does not stop him. Do you guys say anything or let it go? What if its a person who you think may not understand English, let's just for arguement sake say Asian tourists.. How do you all handle it? Do you call in security? Let an Elder address it? I try to be patient, but it can be tough... WaDo for your time and input.

08-01-2006, 07:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
TKMJ Productions Powwow Sound 4 U Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio, Oregon. Two locations, No waiting Posts: 928	I've been at a lot of powwows over the years. It seems there is always at least one spectator at every powwow that does not listen or doesn't care and takes that picture at the wrong time. Some times it is just let go. Other times, the spectator is asked to stop and nothing else is done. There have been times over the years that I have seen a camera taken away and the film removed. I have also seen spectators with cameras tossed out to the parking lot. With the use of digital cameras, I have seen security ask the spectator to erase the picture from the memory. If the picture taking was an honest mistake or the spectator didn't hear the the MC announce "no pictures", the spectator will usually comply when asked to erase the picture. If the spectator refuses, the camera should be taken away by security, the picture erased, and then returned to the spectator. If the spectator has a problem with that, it's "There's the door! See Ya!". I have also seen dancers, security, staff members and even other spectators who will put their hand in front of the lense of someone taking a picture at the wrong time. The suprise of the hand with an explanation will usually stop the picture taking or someone has a great shot of someones hand. That's what I have seen from "mild to extreem". My personal oponion is that the comittee should address the problem and decide what should be done long before the powwow starts. Security should then be instructed on how to handle the problem. Powwows have always had this problem as long as I could remember. Any way the problem is handled, It should be done in a good way on your part reguardless of what the spectators does. For that one spectator that''s a butt head, the gate is a good place to show him on the way out. For those people who do not speak our language, they take the same chance as everone else. Remember this country is "Equal Opportunity, It's the Law". Bring a translator friend. My responce may seem a little cold. Sorry about that. If someone can't or won't respect our ways, they don't belong at our powwows. __________________ Don't ask me what I think about something unless you want a truthful anwser. It may not be the anwser you are looking for. It's better to fly with the eagles then drive with the turkeys.

08-01-2006, 10:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
littleredblanket Body By Commodities Baby! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio- But originally from WA state Posts: 175	if i see a spectator disregarding the MC's request I will usually try to respectfully tell the person taking the photo to stop and give them an explanation as to why they are not allowed to take pictures at that given time. If they refuse to comply still I will let security or the AD know and let them handle it. I just refuse to get into a knock down drag out fight with a spectator who is ignorant of any and all common sense or social skills. Its just a waste of my time. __________________ Abs of Frybread and Buns of Commodity Cheese

08-01-2006, 01:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Wyldwolf52 Springdeer Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 57	Pow Wow Pictures The last Pow Wow put on by the Southern Oregon Indian Center. It was The Veterens- Arrangements had been made to have 2 photographers, one to film, the other with a camera, to take pictures of the entire pow wow. Grand entry included. I have been taught no pictures of Ceromonies. When I went to ask why, I was told that is the way they wanted it. I went around and asked a few folk what they thought, they just shrugged and said I don't know. I was very disappointing. I left very early. They are having another this weekend. Rogue Valley, is a special one for most. It takes places on the grounds where they were once held Native American prisoners. Springdeer

08-01-2006, 02:21 PM	#9 (permalink)
Nezbah Peace n Mutton Grease Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ober here in NM Posts: 875	Ohhhhhh and same goes for newspapers!! Just recently I found a photo of my 6 year old son in the newspaper and my neice. It was in the front page, yeah its nice to be recognized but do these people have any type of respect for the little ones? Yeah they are cute but man, there are many many sicko's out there (yes, they had his name on the front page too). On top of that, they had it on their internet!! Plus, they were charging to buy the photo, no emails or phone calls to ask me permission to post these photos or even compensation. I almost fell off my chair!! I called the editor and filed a complaint. Apparently they had a deal with the committee but non of us dancers were notified that these people were going to exploit our children and make a profit off it!! Ugggggggh, it just made me sick. There is also a molester around his school that is attacking little boys this past year (aka the Arroya Molester here in Albuquerque). So far he has molested 3 boys from his school in the daylight. If these committee's are inviting newspapers, press, etc to come photograph our children we should at least sign some sort of consent form. I don't know how you other parents feel about this, but I will protect my son as best as I can. Luckily they took the picture off but it was nearly 3 months too late. I didn't even know about it until then (friends ended up telling me about it later). I swear......some people!! __________________ You have crossed my path, you have touched my heart, you are my friend, You will never be forgotten......

08-01-2006, 12:49 AM	#2 (permalink)
notsocheese Junior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: on planet Earth... Posts: 198 Blog Entries: 2	No pics to be taken at all at a powwow? I've heard Mc's tell people no flash photography during contests because it distracts dancers.

08-01-2006, 01:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
tsuj510 Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 420	Uh... No. My post said at certain times, not no photos at all.. Just curious how you guys would handle that....

08-01-2006, 01:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
notsocheese Junior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: on planet Earth... Posts: 198 Blog Entries: 2	My apologies.. I misread your post. In my experiences at powwows I've just seen (and heard) the Mc tell spectators to not take photos. Usually it just stops and thats that. Oh yeah and sometimes the AD's will tell the people who continue to photograph to stop.

08-01-2006, 01:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Redstone Numunnu Teh-da Puku Nu Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 230	Interesting topic. I agree with most of you, sometimes a word in a good way is the best route to go and a lot of patience. Most of the time it works but then you get the person who occassionally doesnt' care. In that case I would rather they leave if they can't respect the request. I might add and I think this was in another topic from Wakalapi, just two weeks ago at a powwow, a photographer did some photographing dancers and later I find that these pictures were on their professional website for sale at $1.75 a shot. Now I don't mind someone taking a picture for personal use, but I do think it is wrong to take a person's picture for profit. I've debated about writing the person and asking them to remove my picture as I feel strongly about this. I also think it is ripping people off, and to much of that has gone on in our community. If you plan to take pictures for a profit or make money off it, at least ask the person you are taking a picture of if they agree to that. It would be nice to hear what the rest of you think on this as well.

08-01-2006, 02:40 PM	#10 (permalink)
paintedsun22 Dancer 4 Life!! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: If you find me, keep me here until I get back. Posts: 202	It bothers me most when people come up to me and start touching my regalia and taking pics of me without my permission. Then they start talking over my head about my stuff like I'm not even there.... I'm not on display!!! It gets real personal then....

08-01-2006, 02:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
Hazben Gimpy Old Dancer Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Shawnee Country Posts: 287	Lot of good points here. I was under the impression that to publish somebody's picture online, you must have a signed release. I may be wrong? I also recently saw a "professional photographer" at a powwow taking shots of Grand Entry. I went to the MC and was told that he had permission. I elected not to dance. I understand people needing to make a living, but respect for ceremony and dancers needs to be a part of that. Many spectators don't know the proper protocols and many don't listen to the MC. Sometimes PA systems aren't that good, or there's a lot of other noise and distractions. That's not a reason to let it slide. It has been my experience that usually an explanation in a good way takes care of it. If that doesn't do it, the AD can and should handle it. Every time something like this happens, it's a chance to raise someone's understanding. That's a good thing. __________________ Pow Wow Radio Addict The measure of a man is not in what he has, but in what he gives.

08-01-2006, 05:55 PM	#12 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,525	The problem is that public powwows are just that...public. An MC would have to announce 'no pics' every 5 minutes in order to get everyone coming in. As far as people still taking photos when they arent supposed to, alert the AD or just tell them yourself. Or just do what Crow Fair does, charge people $ for a permit. But most of the time if you just look at the people taking photos, they ARENT doig it for money, they are doing it to say the took a photo of a REAL LIVE NDN. You know who Im talking about. The old men in khaki shorts and black socks and the women with BIG brimmed hats. Maybe post a disclaimer at the entrance or on the flyers. But there is always the guy with the camera belt and bag with 3 cameras around his neck. __________________ There are 2 types of people in the world... Really stupid people who think they are smart and Really smart people who think they are smart.

08-01-2006, 08:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
tsuj510 Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 420