Grand Entry Points???

WhoMe · 06-06-2006, 01:04 PM

I was just thinkin'.....

ARE GRAND ENTRY POINTS NECESSARY?

This is my argument:

Last weekend AND the weekend before, different contestants did not make grand entry and were not awarded grand entry points. Yet, these contestants won first. Hmmmm?

I predict THIS coming weekend AND next weekend, there will be a dance contest winner, who wins without making grand entry.

I have seen many times during a grand entry, dancers come in half dressed, adult dancers come in at the end and expect their numbers to be taken, dancers who sing and don't grand entry at all and dancers get their number taken, then leave the arena. Hmmmm? (*L I'll be the first to admit I am guilty of all these infractions)!!!

Dance contests are supposed to be based on how well a person dances, aren't they? So why are points given for each grand entry (at most powwows)?

If a contestant is THAT good, their high accumulated dance points, in most cases, will override a mediocre dancer who has made every grand entry.

Whatcha' think?

Paul G · 06-06-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

I was just thinkin'.....

ARE GRAND ENTRY POINTS NECESSARY?

This is my argument:

Last weekend AND the weekend before, different contestants did not make grand entry and were not awarded grand entry points. Yet, these contestants won first. Hmmmm?

I predict THIS coming weekend AND next weekend, there will be a dance contest winner, who wins without making grand entry.

I have seen many times during a grand entry, dancers come in half dressed, adult dancers come in at the end and expect their numbers to be taken, dancers who sing and don't grand entry at all and dancers get their number taken, then leave the arena. Hmmmm? (*L I'll be the first to admit I am guilty of all these infractions)!!!

Dance contests are supposed to be based on how well a person dances, aren't they? So why are points given for each grand entry (at most powwows)?

If a contestant is THAT good, their high accumulated dance points, in most cases, will override a mediocre dancer who has made every grand entry.

Whatcha' think?

But will those points help that same mediocre dancer place and get a little $? Maybe they will never win, but can those points reward that dancer for making the grand entrys?

RedShield · 06-06-2006, 01:31 PM

Yeah, all valid points... but... I've seen GE points make the difference between 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd when the dancers were real close in ability.

Just makes me think back to a previous thread that mentioned that there were no Grand Entrys at one time. I think it would be interesting to see this happen today, just imagine what would be said!

As for singers that are also competing... I think there would have to be exceptions, especially if that drum has the GE song. There are also a few places I've seen where GE points are given for fully dressed only, if you show up half dressed... no points... it all depends on how strict the committee wants to get I guess.

Paselo

**NDNQt** · 06-06-2006, 01:35 PM

Being a tabulator I have run into the situation where someone misses a grand entry (note I said a not all) and still got first. If that person had been placed by all the judges each time and missed a grand entry those 1st place points made all the difference in the world.

As for singers, I try to make sure that unless they are singing GE they dance in GE.

WhoMe · 06-06-2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedShield

Yeah, all valid points... but... I've seen GE points make the difference between 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd when the dancers were real close in ability.

Just makes me think back to a previous thread that mentioned that there were no Grand Entrys at one time. I think it would be interesting to see this happen today, just imagine what would be said!

RShield,

Sometimes grand entry points do make a difference and put a mediocre dancer above a top dancer.

Lots of times when several dancers with close ablity are close in points, they will simply "dance off." The person who is having a better day will win.

If they didn't have a Grand Entry at a Big Contest powwow, people WILL freak out. *L I have seen it tried. The commitee - "by popular request" - reinstated it! It's just what people are used to nowadayz.

Paul,

I have seen many a dancer compete and make every grand entry - yet never win.

Sad huh?

Strugganona · 06-06-2006, 10:10 PM

I think that Grand Entry points shouldn't be TOO much because we've all been there where we're running late because of reasons (traffic, late start, alarm didn't set right, GOT LOST!). We shouldn't be penalized for that. I've traveled to a lot of new places this past year, and I can not count how many times I got lost trying to wind my way through back roads that weren't on my map....I missed GE a few times because of that...still, it is competition, and we need to consider points...I could see how frustrating it would be if someone REPEATEDLY missed GE because they felt they didn't need to be in it, and still wins. Doesn't seem fair at all.

suthernwaterbird · 06-06-2006, 11:10 PM

The way I look at points is kinda like government funds. When they need money they find other places to aquire a certain amount. Maybe they may need money for DOT, so they add another toll road, or they increase fines for speeding, littering, etc. Kinda like in dance categories, the head judge has a required amount of points for each place. To accomplish this, there are various oppurtunities available such as, Grand Entry, Spot Check, Exhibitions etc. This is a method of multi-tasking by encouraging participation, and acheiving the goal of the head judge. Ofcourse you could just tie-break everyone to death...

RedGrassdancer · 06-07-2006, 01:04 AM

Hey! hey!! hey!!!

there are some of us dancers who need the extra points to gain an edge on those young 18 year olds who have the energy of the energizer bunny!!! LOL!

On a serious note, It does come in handy as a tie breaker or you find out that a powwow is rigged. I've been to powwows that have been fair in points and competition; Then I've been to powwows where a dancer doesn't make grand entry, misses all the spot checks, sits in the crowd during intertribals and only comes out to contest and they take first!! Maybe they're just one helluva dancer, dunno though.

I've been on short end of the stick and also the long end of it so I think grand entry points are okay for now, until I get jipped again, LOL.

Kio-Manche · 06-07-2006, 08:47 AM

I've been to some dances that require the dancers to participate in GE and 2 or 3 intertribals in order to compete. In other words, you don't participate in GE you don't compete. Personally, I feel points should be given during the competition, period. I am not a fan of GE points. I do feel the dancers should participate in GE though. The crowd loves it and without the crowd, there is no powwow or prize money.
Numunu

**Wojapi4Me** · 06-07-2006, 08:55 AM

I've always said that I don't like grand entry points. I think dance contests should be just about that and not about accumulating points from grand entry, spot checks, and all that other stuff. I'd like to see some of the larger pow wows go back to a finals like they used to have. You used to have to qualify for the finals which were held the last day, but nowadays they don't have finals and everyone thinks they're still in the running until the last minute.

I think grand entry points actually penalize some dancers who are family-oriented. Sometimes its hard to make grand entry with a two-year old in tow or think about the moms that sometimes have multiple children to get ready in addition to themselves...same thing with spot checks...do away with those as they definitely penalize families. I've seen it happen numerous times where a mom would take their child to the bathroom and a spot check was held. Or a dad is at the sno-cone stand with their child and a spot check is held.

Just concentrate on the dance contest itself and forget about all this other stuff.

Ivanasnagu · 06-07-2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad

I've always said that I don't like grand entry points. I think dance contests should be just about that and not about accumulating points from grand entry, spot checks, and all that other stuff. I'd like to see some of the larger pow wows go back to a finals like they used to have. You used to have to qualify for the finals which were held the last day, but nowadays they don't have finals and everyone thinks they're still in the running until the last minute.

I think grand entry points actually penalize some dancers who are family-oriented. Sometimes its hard to make grand entry with a two-year old in tow or think about the moms that sometimes have multiple children to get ready in addition to themselves...same thing with spot checks...do away with those as they definitely penalize families. I've seen it happen numerous times where a mom would take their child to the bathroom and a spot check was held. Or a dad is at the sno-cone stand with their child and a spot check is held.

Just concentrate on the dance contest itself and forget about all this other stuff.

I agree with you...... seems like committees also penalize the working class, too. I can only manage a 2 to 3 hour radius to travel to pow-wows because GE on Friday nights are tough to make. I've also been on both sides of the spectrum because I take points serious - you have to if you want to compete. Then more times than I can remember someone comes in on Saturday, misses a couple of spot checks and still happens to take 1st or 2nd. Doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm just thankful to have a job or I'd probably starve! LOL

Generous_66 · 06-07-2006, 02:45 PM

regarding GE Points:

First of all, the comment about not making it for Friday and having to work, well for most Pow Wow people that is the case, in order for us to have disposable income to purchase items, we have to work( i.e to support families etc.). Again and again, dancers have won 1st or 2nd and not attended GE? or have dropped something during the dance competition, but yet still PLACE! Does this all stem back to the fact that most dance competitions are not fair, and that they take care of their "own" by providing them with a placing so they will have monies for the next pow wow.

Secondly:
Dance Competitions should not be considered in the same avenue as the 100m dash, where the winner is chosen by the best time, or in hockey where the winner is based on who puts the most pucks in the net, as in 'our' case the, The BEST Dancer!
NO, this is incorrect in most cases ( NOT ALL), without any offence given, it is perceived more like figure skating

(as we know even figure skating has its controversies..) as dancers are picked with talent considered, by also how long they have been there......and who know who and who is who....etc,.etc...I really wish this would change. This would open up the competition and provide incentive for new talent to be really explored..!!

Now with GE Points being given, this being incorporated into Judging...can this really be fair? or are winners once again pre-picked? not depending on weather the dancer shows up for GE or not.....

Now how can we change judging so this take care of their own mentality will stop...and the level of dancing can take the mainstage...until then... the evolution of the competition will never fully develop...I agree that it is good to support each other, but its more important for each of us to support ourselves (i.e working mon to fri..etc..)

Thirdly:
What do most Pow wows give point or percentage wise for GE? Any one really know?

How about not providing money for winners, but trophies and titles?

or better yet.... Provide a system where you have to win in order to "qualify to attend the World Championship Pow Wow"!

Just some ideas.....

WhoMe · 06-07-2006, 03:23 PM

Quote:

06-06-2006, 01:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,559	Grand Entry Points??? I was just thinkin'..... ARE GRAND ENTRY POINTS NECESSARY? This is my argument: Last weekend AND the weekend before, different contestants did not make grand entry and were not awarded grand entry points. Yet, these contestants won first. Hmmmm? I predict THIS coming weekend AND next weekend, there will be a dance contest winner, who wins without making grand entry. I have seen many times during a grand entry, dancers come in half dressed, adult dancers come in at the end and expect their numbers to be taken, dancers who sing and don't grand entry at all and dancers get their number taken, then leave the arena. Hmmmm? (L I'll be the first to admit I am guilty of all these infractions*)!!! Dance contests are supposed to be based on how well a person dances, aren't they? So why are points given for each grand entry (at most powwows)? If a contestant is THAT good, their high accumulated dance points, in most cases, will override a mediocre dancer who has made every grand entry. Whatcha' think? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

06-06-2006, 01:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
RedShield Singer/ Dancer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 15,474	Yeah, all valid points... but... I've seen GE points make the difference between 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd when the dancers were real close in ability. Just makes me think back to a previous thread that mentioned that there were no Grand Entrys at one time. I think it would be interesting to see this happen today, just imagine what would be said! As for singers that are also competing... I think there would have to be exceptions, especially if that drum has the GE song. There are also a few places I've seen where GE points are given for fully dressed only, if you show up half dressed... no points... it all depends on how strict the committee wants to get I guess. Paselo __________________ I became a singer because I love to sing... and to feed my addiction to cough drops!

06-06-2006, 01:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
NDNQt PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Aylett, VA Posts: 1,076	Being a tabulator I have run into the situation where someone misses a grand entry (note I said a not all) and still got first. If that person had been placed by all the judges each time and missed a grand entry those 1st place points made all the difference in the world. As for singers, I try to make sure that unless they are singing GE they dance in GE. __________________ Becky B.

06-06-2006, 10:10 PM	#6 (permalink)
Strugganona Miss Struggs Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 716 337 Posts: 211	Good Thread I think that Grand Entry points shouldn't be TOO much because we've all been there where we're running late because of reasons (traffic, late start, alarm didn't set right, GOT LOST!). We shouldn't be penalized for that. I've traveled to a lot of new places this past year, and I can not count how many times I got lost trying to wind my way through back roads that weren't on my map....I missed GE a few times because of that...still, it is competition, and we need to consider points...I could see how frustrating it would be if someone REPEATEDLY missed GE because they felt they didn't need to be in it, and still wins. Doesn't seem fair at all. __________________ "Talk Is Fine- If You Got The Time, But I Ain't Got No Time To Spare...."

06-06-2006, 11:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
suthernwaterbird nobody Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: atl, ga Posts: 1,004	The way I look at points is kinda like government funds. When they need money they find other places to aquire a certain amount. Maybe they may need money for DOT, so they add another toll road, or they increase fines for speeding, littering, etc. Kinda like in dance categories, the head judge has a required amount of points for each place. To accomplish this, there are various oppurtunities available such as, Grand Entry, Spot Check, Exhibitions etc. This is a method of multi-tasking by encouraging participation, and acheiving the goal of the head judge. Ofcourse you could just tie-break everyone to death... __________________ WhY yOu AsK? bEcUz We CaN!

06-07-2006, 01:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
RedGrassdancer Dansin reel goot! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: n my own T P Posts: 218	I need those extra points!!!! Hey! hey!! hey!!! there are some of us dancers who need the extra points to gain an edge on those young 18 year olds who have the energy of the energizer bunny!!! LOL! On a serious note, It does come in handy as a tie breaker or you find out that a powwow is rigged. I've been to powwows that have been fair in points and competition; Then I've been to powwows where a dancer doesn't make grand entry, misses all the spot checks, sits in the crowd during intertribals and only comes out to contest and they take first!! Maybe they're just one helluva dancer, dunno though. I've been on short end of the stick and also the long end of it so I think grand entry points are okay for now, until I get jipped again, LOL. __________________ "Dance me outside...??"

06-07-2006, 08:47 AM	#9 (permalink)
Kio-Manche a.k.a Numunu1971 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ponca City, Ok. Born and Raised in Lawton Ok. Posts: 1,603	I've been to some dances that require the dancers to participate in GE and 2 or 3 intertribals in order to compete. In other words, you don't participate in GE you don't compete. Personally, I feel points should be given during the competition, period. I am not a fan of GE points. I do feel the dancers should participate in GE though. The crowd loves it and without the crowd, there is no powwow or prize money. Numunu __________________ Kio-Manche Oklahoma Proud!!!

06-07-2006, 08:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,515	I've always said that I don't like grand entry points. I think dance contests should be just about that and not about accumulating points from grand entry, spot checks, and all that other stuff. I'd like to see some of the larger pow wows go back to a finals like they used to have. You used to have to qualify for the finals which were held the last day, but nowadays they don't have finals and everyone thinks they're still in the running until the last minute. I think grand entry points actually penalize some dancers who are family-oriented. Sometimes its hard to make grand entry with a two-year old in tow or think about the moms that sometimes have multiple children to get ready in addition to themselves...same thing with spot checks...do away with those as they definitely penalize families. I've seen it happen numerous times where a mom would take their child to the bathroom and a spot check was held. Or a dad is at the sno-cone stand with their child and a spot check is held. Just concentrate on the dance contest itself and forget about all this other stuff. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

06-07-2006, 02:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
Generous_66 Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 21	Grand Entry What? points! regarding GE Points: First of all, the comment about not making it for Friday and having to work, well for most Pow Wow people that is the case, in order for us to have disposable income to purchase items, we have to work( i.e to support families etc.). Again and again, dancers have won 1st or 2nd and not attended GE? or have dropped something during the dance competition, but yet still PLACE! Does this all stem back to the fact that most dance competitions are not fair, and that they take care of their "own" by providing them with a placing so they will have monies for the next pow wow. Secondly: Dance Competitions should not be considered in the same avenue as the 100m dash, where the winner is chosen by the best time, or in hockey where the winner is based on who puts the most pucks in the net, as in 'our' case the, The BEST Dancer! NO, this is incorrect in most cases ( NOT ALL), without any offence given, it is perceived more like figure skating (as we know even figure skating has its controversies..) as dancers are picked with talent considered, by also how long they have been there......and who know who and who is who....etc,.etc...I really wish this would change. This would open up the competition and provide incentive for new talent to be really explored..!! Now with GE Points being given, this being incorporated into Judging...can this really be fair? or are winners once again pre-picked? not depending on weather the dancer shows up for GE or not..... Now how can we change judging so this take care of their own mentality will stop...and the level of dancing can take the mainstage...until then... the evolution of the competition will never fully develop...I agree that it is good to support each other, but its more important for each of us to support ourselves (i.e working mon to fri..etc..) Thirdly: What do most Pow wows give point or percentage wise for GE? Any one really know? How about not providing money for winners, but trophies and titles? or better yet.... Provide a system where you have to win in order to "qualify to attend the World Championship Pow Wow"! Just some ideas.....

06-07-2006, 03:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,559	Quote: