Singer etiquette - Page 2

Hank_Shelton · 04-03-2006, 04:17 AM

As a singer, I still believe "singer ettiquette" is an oxymoron. Or atleast a bad combination of words. Most of us are no good and know it. Ok ok. Sorry. Just trying to interject some ill-humor. My question is though: what about the blind eye that is turned to those (not just singers but dancers, mc's, etc.) who come around the arena high in some form or another because the person is of some "prominent" name in the scene or is from a "big name" drum, or a good friend/ family member, etc. That goes on a lot. I've seen it/ been guilty of it. What about that as a topic of discussion as far as protocol and respect goes?

**kiyaanii mom** · 04-03-2006, 06:25 PM

Actually, I have wondered the same thing. The MC will tell everyone to stand for Grand Entry, flag song and vet song. All the white people stand, a few skins, and rarely do singers stand. During specials is another time when this happens.

I will see a drum group stand when they are being honored by one individual. But how come they rarely to never stand other wise. Is there a reason why they don't.

I'm a woman, so I just wondered if men are too lazy. LOL Kidding.

ajibik · 04-03-2006, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy!

I can admit that I am guilty of maybe singing around, or even have a little laugh around the drum during grand entry. I have been living here in Arizona for awhile now, and have come to notice things about the powwows here. Being from the Northern plains where a lot of powwow traditions originated, I was taught many things of what to do and what not to do. I can say though, that I having seen a few powwow here, I have seen many other things done wrong with the powwows down this way as compared to up north. I know that many places have there own ways, and all of that should be taken into consideration. Some other things I have seen done wrong down this way, are things like that carrier of the eagle staff, it seems like they juss pick anybody to carry it in, or the invocation. I know that respecting our elders is always there, but certain people have rights offer prayers like that, but here any old person will do, they seem to think.
As for singing in particular, I have noticed a lot of disrespect toward them down here as well. Down this way the appreciation toward singers is no where to be found, and it is a belief that any old drums will do. That as long as the powwow is advertised, drums will show up, but since the days of powwow have changed along with everything else the money to get to and from isn't there. Today money is the driving force behind powwows, where as back in the day the powwows had more meaning. where it was serious NOT to talk or play during certain times. The way I was always taught was in order to dance, you need singers! That in order to have a powwow you needed drums, and the drum was the life of the powwow. Where I come from singers get everything first, they eat first and are treated with respect. They get paid very well, because the thought of having them back is there. Example of disrespect at UofA this past weekend, I went to get a water from the committee,and a dancer came ahead of me. He got a nice cold water from a bucket of ice, where as I was told singer's water was the warm still packaged waters. Also the committee had extra money, why not pay the none placing drums. Instead it was the dancers in golden age, not to disrespect the elders. There are a lot more singers in need of a few extra dollars than a few elders. These could be a few things that keep Big name drums from coming down this way, is the lack of hospitality. I ain't trying to step on toes or offend anyone, juss puttin in my two cents. Lets see who replies and gets hurt feelings over my words though...thank you for your time!

Agreed 100%

Purple Reign · 04-04-2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom

Actually, I have wondered the same thing. The MC will tell everyone to stand for Grand Entry, flag song and vet song. All the white people stand, a few skins, and rarely do singers stand. During specials is another time when this happens.

I will see a drum group stand when they are being honored by one individual. But how come they rarely to never stand other wise. Is there a reason why they don't.

I'm a woman, so I just wondered if men are too lazy. LOL Kidding.

One teaching I have heard is that the drum is a grandfather and much like your own grandfather, you sit with him when he is sitting. It is not a lack of respect for the powwow but a sign of respect for grandfather drum.

**billyjoejimbob** · 04-04-2006, 04:36 PM

baker-i heard cold water is not good for your throat when you singing. i have no scientific proof, was just told that. but who knows.

another possible reason.
Singers get bottled water in cases usually so they have the bottle to hold instead of a cup while they are singing. there are usually more dancers so they get the dirty tap water with ice, better than buying a hundred cases of water i guess. plus the litter would be unbearable, not that it isnt now.

Bakerboy! · 04-04-2006, 06:59 PM

Point is, that the committee made it seem like the singers aren't good enough to have the ice cold refreshing water. Where down here in the Hot *** sun, it would be nice to have. No, thier view was that the ice cold water was only for dancers. It's not even about the water, it's about the lack of respect for the singers that bring the powwow to life, with out them. There would be no music and no powwow at all! Those gifted to sing and have a love for it, know that. And when the respect for singers isn't there, what's to keep them coming back. Up north, they love thier singers. They take good care of them, they hold feeds, put up big drum split money (knowing powwows today are all about that!). Where as down here, they'll be lucky to make a buck. How are they suppose to get home? With gas and food expenses so high today, the love for the singers needs to be juss as high as for the dancers. Good big name dancers will tell you, they love dancing to the big name drums, but how do you get them to come? Just like everything else MONEY! That should be a topic on here...the influence of MONEY on powwows!

Wakalapi · 04-04-2006, 07:17 PM

I would really chalk that rule up to committee stinginess than concern for singers throats and cold water. They might have decided they can enforce the rule easier if the only let obvious dancers (in regalia) get to the icewater tub. Personally, if I'm not singing at a powwow I really don't pack my drumsticks just so I can sneak into the food lines and get icewater. They probably just didn't have time to keep dumping more warm water bottles into the tub to get chilled.

Sakaway · 04-04-2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakerboy!

Point is, that the committee made it seem like the singers aren't good enough to have the ice cold refreshing water. Where down here in the Hot *** sun, it would be nice to have. No, thier view was that the ice cold water was only for dancers. It's not even about the water, it's about the lack of respect for the singers that bring the powwow to life, with out them. There would be no music and no powwow at all! Those gifted to sing and have a love for it, know that. And when the respect for singers isn't there, what's to keep them coming back. Up north, they love thier singers. They take good care of them, they hold feeds, put up big drum split money (knowing powwows today are all about that!). Where as down here, they'll be lucky to make a buck. How are they suppose to get home? With gas and food expenses so high today, the love for the singers needs to be juss as high as for the dancers. Good big name dancers will tell you, they love dancing to the big name drums, but how do you get them to come? Just like everything else MONEY! That should be a topic on here...the influence of MONEY on powwows!

Amen!! *L* For realz, you make a lot of very good points and I know what you're saying. Maybe it's because I'm from up north too.

As for Billiejoejimbob (sorry if I got your name wrong), I guess you're a better person than I for listening to every single word the emcee says and knowing what's going on at every single time of the pow wow. However, I don't think you've ever competed at a major pow wow in a singing contest. Every drum that I've ever sang with has hummed a new tune during the times mentioned before. I'm not saying it's okay but I merely just saying that it happens. It takes a singer to know that things like that actually happen. Our lead singer says, "it's not church" hahahaha. But in all honesty, we mean no disrespect. I mentioned that before and why things these things happen. I guess it wasn't understood........

powwow_playa · 04-05-2006, 12:23 PM

One thing that I rarely see outside the midwest is a blanket dance for the singers. This gives the singers a little extra money for dinner or gas. I agree with Bakerboy that there is much more emphasis on dancers rather than the singers in certain areas when it is really the singers that keep the powwow going.

**billyjoejimbob** · 04-05-2006, 05:48 PM

baker-i GOT the point, i just told you what i heard. i dont think all powwow committees beleive that. there are probably some dancers here that would complain about getting tap water and not the bottled water. it goes both ways.

sak - if paying attention makes me better...then yes i am. but we all have our off days, especially when you are behind the MC and the speakers and hear nothing but "WHA WHA WHA BWA BLAH BLAH WAH" as for praticing, im talking about people who sit there and hit their drum and practice loud. people who sit there and beat their drum the same as the other drum and screw around going slower or faster. its all about respect.

as for competition, never been in one, dont care to be. but if i was, i would be courteous to the other drums and not try to mess them up just so they get less points.

there isnt enough money for EVERYONE at a powwow, there isnt enough honesty in judging at some powwows, i would rather have the bottled water than the tap.

yeah, singers are important and you cant have a powwow without them, but the same goes for dancers, traders and committees.

LSS · 04-05-2006, 07:34 PM

The cold water is cold because the particles inside the water (can we say molecules?) are moving very, very slowly.

Now, take your hands and put around the bottle that has no water on the outside of the bottle (i.e. from a cooler). Let it sit for 2 minutes or so. Take your hands off and place your hands on your arms. How does your touch feel? Get your buddy to hold the bottle. Is it as cold as ice/the cooler interior?

As a singer, I prefer cool/luke warm water. The particles are moving around a bit faster and I don't have to worry about my throat constricting like my hands just did after taking them off of the bottle fresh out of the cooler. It may help initially....esp. if your cords are already torn. Give me some room temp. water or some coffee along w/ some chips, frybreak, bbq or something else greesey.

Nothing like a little greese to lube 'em up and coffee to warm 'em up in a time of need.

**billyjoejimbob** · 04-05-2006, 08:06 PM

thank you poindexter.

so there!

i drink hot tea or coffee no matter how hot it is out.

Maybe that is why these northern singers squeeze their throats? Lack of knowledge of human anatomy, biology and physics in school.

crazywolf · 04-05-2006, 11:12 PM

Boozhoo niji,

I am going to try to not step on any toes here. About the water, for me personally, I dring room temperature, or whatever it is outside. I dont like to drink ice water either singing or dancing, mostly because it sinks like a rock in my stomach, constricts my throat and gives me a headache. I think the icy water should have been made available to the singers as well as the dancers, but I prefer the unchilled, as well as a lemon once ina while. Lemons were offered at the last pow wow I sang at, and it was a Florida pow wow.

Speaking of that pow wow, lemme run this by you all. I talked some guys from Canada into going to that pow wow. I met them at a pow wow the weekend before, and we talked, and luck had it we were all Shinobs. I asked them if they sang, then I said I would provide a drum if they wanted to stay an extra week. They agreed, and we traveled.

There were four other drums there, ours is named Mishomis Animikii (Grandfather Thunder), and the only other drum I will give credit for being there is Medicine Tail. The emcee announced how the drum rotation would be set up, and the pow wow began. MT was going to start it off with the grand entry, then there was the flag and veterans songs. Our drum was supposed to have the first intertribal. I walked across the circle after the vets song was finished, and the two boys on the drum were tossing a couple of intertribals across, then finally decided on one. We began to beat the drum, and maybe one word was spit out when another drum started singing and totally ran over us.

All of us on the drum pretty much thought that stunk. I personally lost respect for that drum and would not dance when they sang. They did this to us 2 other times during the pow wow, and finally my friend went up to emcee and speak his mind. It got heated, and I had to work to cool things down. I dont know if that had anything to do with anything, but the emcee came up and asked us to sing to honoring song to close the pow wow for the day on Saturday. It was an honor, and some singers from Medicine Tail came up and sang with us. We sounded awesome.

The other drum did not step on our toes after that, and we did the same on Sunday, closed out the pow wow. I have since seen this other drum at pow wows, and still do not dance to them, and all my singer have since gone back home to Canada.

My point is... I feel like if this kind of thing happened up north, it would have been far more confrontational. My friend really felt like going and punching this other guy. He was my elder, and there was nothing I could do to keep him from doing so, but instead he talked things out with the emcee and it came out for the better anyway. Do any of you think this other drum was being disrespectful? or were they just impatient to start singing and didnt want to wait for us to come up with our song?

Derek

04-04-2006, 06:59 PM	#26 (permalink)
Bakerboy! Singer! Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Tucson,AZ (currently) Fort Berthold is Home! Posts: 10	You're not seeing the point! Point is, that the committee made it seem like the singers aren't good enough to have the ice cold refreshing water. Where down here in the Hot *** sun, it would be nice to have. No, thier view was that the ice cold water was only for dancers. It's not even about the water, it's about the lack of respect for the singers that bring the powwow to life, with out them. There would be no music and no powwow at all! Those gifted to sing and have a love for it, know that. And when the respect for singers isn't there, what's to keep them coming back. Up north, they love thier singers. They take good care of them, they hold feeds, put up big drum split money (knowing powwows today are all about that!). Where as down here, they'll be lucky to make a buck. How are they suppose to get home? With gas and food expenses so high today, the love for the singers needs to be juss as high as for the dancers. Good big name dancers will tell you, they love dancing to the big name drums, but how do you get them to come? Just like everything else MONEY! That should be a topic on here...the influence of MONEY on powwows!

04-04-2006, 07:17 PM	#27 (permalink)
Wakalapi www.wakalapi.com Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: East of the Mountains Posts: 1,283	I would really chalk that rule up to committee stinginess than concern for singers throats and cold water. They might have decided they can enforce the rule easier if the only let obvious dancers (in regalia) get to the icewater tub. Personally, if I'm not singing at a powwow I really don't pack my drumsticks just so I can sneak into the food lines and get icewater. They probably just didn't have time to keep dumping more warm water bottles into the tub to get chilled. __________________ "Friends don't let friends drink decaf..." Relaunched Nov 1, 2008. Completely rebuilt and easier to use than ever.

04-05-2006, 07:34 PM	#31 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 880	As a science teacher, please allow me to speak on dis! The cold water is cold because the particles inside the water (can we say molecules?) are moving very, very slowly. Now, take your hands and put around the bottle that has no water on the outside of the bottle (i.e. from a cooler). Let it sit for 2 minutes or so. Take your hands off and place your hands on your arms. How does your touch feel? Get your buddy to hold the bottle. Is it as cold as ice/the cooler interior? As a singer, I prefer cool/luke warm water. The particles are moving around a bit faster and I don't have to worry about my throat constricting like my hands just did after taking them off of the bottle fresh out of the cooler. It may help initially....esp. if your cords are already torn. Give me some room temp. water or some coffee along w/ some chips, frybreak, bbq or something else greesey. Nothing like a little greese to lube 'em up and coffee to warm 'em up in a time of need. __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

04-03-2006, 04:17 AM	#21 (permalink)
Hank_Shelton Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 94	As a singer, I still believe "singer ettiquette" is an oxymoron. Or atleast a bad combination of words. Most of us are no good and know it. Ok ok. Sorry. Just trying to interject some ill-humor. My question is though: what about the blind eye that is turned to those (not just singers but dancers, mc's, etc.) who come around the arena high in some form or another because the person is of some "prominent" name in the scene or is from a "big name" drum, or a good friend/ family member, etc. That goes on a lot. I've seen it/ been guilty of it. What about that as a topic of discussion as far as protocol and respect goes?

04-03-2006, 06:25 PM	#22 (permalink)
kiyaanii mom We'll See.... Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Waiting for you all to go to Firerock!!! Posts: 3,899	Actually, I have wondered the same thing. The MC will tell everyone to stand for Grand Entry, flag song and vet song. All the white people stand, a few skins, and rarely do singers stand. During specials is another time when this happens. I will see a drum group stand when they are being honored by one individual. But how come they rarely to never stand other wise. Is there a reason why they don't. I'm a woman, so I just wondered if men are too lazy. LOL Kidding.

04-04-2006, 04:36 PM	#25 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,526	baker-i heard cold water is not good for your throat when you singing. i have no scientific proof, was just told that. but who knows. another possible reason. Singers get bottled water in cases usually so they have the bottle to hold instead of a cup while they are singing. there are usually more dancers so they get the dirty tap water with ice, better than buying a hundred cases of water i guess. plus the litter would be unbearable, not that it isnt now.

04-05-2006, 12:23 PM	#29 (permalink)
powwow_playa Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 11	One thing that I rarely see outside the midwest is a blanket dance for the singers. This gives the singers a little extra money for dinner or gas. I agree with Bakerboy that there is much more emphasis on dancers rather than the singers in certain areas when it is really the singers that keep the powwow going.

04-05-2006, 05:48 PM	#30 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,526	baker-i GOT the point, i just told you what i heard. i dont think all powwow committees beleive that. there are probably some dancers here that would complain about getting tap water and not the bottled water. it goes both ways. sak - if paying attention makes me better...then yes i am. but we all have our off days, especially when you are behind the MC and the speakers and hear nothing but "WHA WHA WHA BWA BLAH BLAH WAH" as for praticing, im talking about people who sit there and hit their drum and practice loud. people who sit there and beat their drum the same as the other drum and screw around going slower or faster. its all about respect. as for competition, never been in one, dont care to be. but if i was, i would be courteous to the other drums and not try to mess them up just so they get less points. there isnt enough money for EVERYONE at a powwow, there isnt enough honesty in judging at some powwows, i would rather have the bottled water than the tap. yeah, singers are important and you cant have a powwow without them, but the same goes for dancers, traders and committees.

04-05-2006, 08:06 PM	#32 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,526	thank you poindexter. so there! i drink hot tea or coffee no matter how hot it is out. Maybe that is why these northern singers squeeze their throats? Lack of knowledge of human anatomy, biology and physics in school.

04-05-2006, 11:12 PM	#33 (permalink)
crazywolf crazywolf Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Detroit Lakes, MN Posts: 870 Blog Entries: 6	Boozhoo niji, I am going to try to not step on any toes here. About the water, for me personally, I dring room temperature, or whatever it is outside. I dont like to drink ice water either singing or dancing, mostly because it sinks like a rock in my stomach, constricts my throat and gives me a headache. I think the icy water should have been made available to the singers as well as the dancers, but I prefer the unchilled, as well as a lemon once ina while. Lemons were offered at the last pow wow I sang at, and it was a Florida pow wow. Speaking of that pow wow, lemme run this by you all. I talked some guys from Canada into going to that pow wow. I met them at a pow wow the weekend before, and we talked, and luck had it we were all Shinobs. I asked them if they sang, then I said I would provide a drum if they wanted to stay an extra week. They agreed, and we traveled. There were four other drums there, ours is named Mishomis Animikii (Grandfather Thunder), and the only other drum I will give credit for being there is Medicine Tail. The emcee announced how the drum rotation would be set up, and the pow wow began. MT was going to start it off with the grand entry, then there was the flag and veterans songs. Our drum was supposed to have the first intertribal. I walked across the circle after the vets song was finished, and the two boys on the drum were tossing a couple of intertribals across, then finally decided on one. We began to beat the drum, and maybe one word was spit out when another drum started singing and totally ran over us. All of us on the drum pretty much thought that stunk. I personally lost respect for that drum and would not dance when they sang. They did this to us 2 other times during the pow wow, and finally my friend went up to emcee and speak his mind. It got heated, and I had to work to cool things down. I dont know if that had anything to do with anything, but the emcee came up and asked us to sing to honoring song to close the pow wow for the day on Saturday. It was an honor, and some singers from Medicine Tail came up and sang with us. We sounded awesome. The other drum did not step on our toes after that, and we did the same on Sunday, closed out the pow wow. I have since seen this other drum at pow wows, and still do not dance to them, and all my singer have since gone back home to Canada. My point is... I feel like if this kind of thing happened up north, it would have been far more confrontational. My friend really felt like going and punching this other guy. He was my elder, and there was nothing I could do to keep him from doing so, but instead he talked things out with the emcee and it came out for the better anyway. Do any of you think this other drum was being disrespectful? or were they just impatient to start singing and didnt want to wait for us to come up with our song? Derek

04-05-2006, 11:19 PM	#34 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 880