Where do these yahoos get this stuff from? - Page 5

**Josiah** · 01-22-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anishinabealltheway

Here in Ojib country we do the smudge thing at every traditional powwow. We have been doing it since long before I was born, and will be doing it long after I'm dead, It's the way our elders have taught us. I think we need it more now than before, because of the bad habits some have developed, having big per caps to pay for them. you can not enter our circle unless you smudge. If that bothers you, that's tough. You could always go to a baseball game instead.

PS. Where do you get off calling our traditions new age??? We have been smudging since before Columbus that would make it decidedly OLD AGE!

Meant no disrespect
Keyword you used was "Traditional Powwow"
And if I had been at a "Traditional Powwow" I would have not seen a Problem... For many tribes smudge and feather but it is a personal thing and you ask someone to do it.
Was it sage or cedar means different things to us
was it with an eagle fan or turkey feathers???
makes a difference
But to do this to all people as they are entering the arena to grand entry i thought it was a bit much

When I say newage I mean non-ndns that take some things from many different tribes and combine them together and make something else
At this same powwow I saw Mennonite girls in there sunday dresses that they hung cones from it and danced as jingle dancers and still wore there bonnets! New-age

They only entered the area from the east and went competely around the circle in order to leave
Made for very long giveaways

New-age

Gledanh Zhinga · 01-22-2007, 12:47 PM

All the Way,

I too mean no disrespect. I lived in Michigan for five years in the 1950's, and I could find hardly any powwows, except a few small intertribals in the Detroit area. I visited Mt. Pleasant, Cross Village and the Traverse City area. I visited Michigan briefly and attended a Walpole Island powwow in the early 1980's. I found no smudging going on. I was told that there was an annual Red Lake, Minnesota, powwow, but I wasn't able to get away for that one. I realize that the Anishinabe is a large group with people in the great lakes area, Canada, and even Montana. I was spending most of my time in Michigan.

I know that Mt. Pleasant has the Saginaw Powwow now and that they have a casino, but nothing much was happening in the 50's.

Sleeping Bear · 01-22-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ta'neeszahnii Techno

Grizzly gets his stuff from Yahoo.com while others get theirs from the Order of the Arrow!

Hi. Just catching up on the thread.

Please don't rip the Order of the Arrow too badly. It was partly why I became interested in indian culture in the first place. I know they have a bunch of dip weeds who think they know what they're doing, but most of them really do try to get it right, or at least do it with a good heart.

When I was a Chapter Adviser, I begged some local native gentlemen of my acquaintance for their help in getting it right. It sure would have been easier if one or more had offered their help to a group of young men who were really interested in getting it right. Never did quite work out that way, though.

**Josiah** · 01-22-2007, 01:38 PM

I was thinking about the subject of smudging at powwows
and again i meant no disrespect to tribes that do that at there powwows...
To understand what i am talking about perhaps some of my background is needed:
I have lived in many places in this country grew up on the Navajo reservation in Shonto and Kayenta but am not Navajo.
I have lived in Phoenix and Albuquerque and seen traditional dances of the Hopis, Pueblos and Zunis
ate with them and enjoyed myself
I have a Cherokee Father who is fullblood and have been exposed to oldways that still exist in eastern Oklahoma
My parents have divorced and Mom remarried a Cheyenne Arapaho
He has introduced me to NAC and Gourd dancing when i was enlisting in the Navy as a young man.
In later years , I have spent time with Northwest tribes and been to Potlatch

I went to my first Powwow when i was 5 years old and that was in 1966 and since then have been to many Powwows throughout the 60's 70's and 80's, mostly in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Arizona
And never once did i see someone smudge or smoke someone with out being asked.

When I first moved to Georgia in 2004 I attended several powwows around the Augusta area namely Rome Ga and Concord North Carolina and one in Evans Ga
In that short period of time I saw things that i had not seen at any powwow that i have ever attended
EVER
And it was in this setting that i saw this smudging and smoking!
He claimed he was Cherokee and that he was doing to this cleanse them
I know of no Cherokee tradition that does this before going into grand entry...
And certainly not with Turkey feathers and a mixture of tobacco and sweet grass
New-age

**kiyaanii mom** · 01-22-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eswaumama

Hi Scott:
But to address this question: Some of these crazy things are taught to us by Indians. (I'm saying 'us' since I'm 100% white and am not sure if you consider me a yahoo/wannabe). I tend to believe what people tell me, so for the longest time if an indian lady would tell me something, I would do as she said. Needless to say, I've done some awfully dumb things. But, have since learned not to listen to total strangers and if someone tells me something that doesn't sound quite right, to go and ask someone that I'm sure knows the right way to do things. At a pow wow in Concord two years ago, I was offered some tobacco so that I could join these other women blessing the four corners of the arena during grand entry. I think that I offended her when I refused to take the tobacco, until I told her that I was white and my religion wouldn't allow me to do that. ( Yes, I knew that it didn't have anything to do with religion but she accepted that explanation for my refusal.

Someone must have had a lot of respect for you to offer tobacco. I want to say thank you for respecting the native way and refusing. If all or even most or the non-natives would just see this as the true form of respect, this thread wouldn't exist.

And yes, I agree, most of this stuff we are reading about probably came from other natives. It's the best example of native humor. LMAO

Sleeping Bear · 01-22-2007, 06:30 PM

OK, now I'm a little worried. I was told by more than one native that if I have a question worthy of an elder, I should offer a pinch of tobacco before asking, and then the rest of the bag if honored with an answer. I have already picked up a bag of tobacco just in case the situation arises. Have I been instructed correctly?
I appreciate any answers.

Blackbear · 01-23-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom

And yes, I agree, most of this stuff we are reading about probably came from other natives. It's the best example of native humor. LMAO

There are also alot of natives out there that have bought into the whole new age thing because they were'nt brought up in their culture, raised in the city even.. they end up readin the same crap that non natives find in hollistic book stores and cult shops, and because dude writing the book makes it sound like he knows what he's talking about they follow along as well. They could also be making stuff up as they go because they figure the folks there don't know the difference anyhow LOL!

**kiyaanii mom** · 01-23-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeping Bear

OK, now I'm a little worried. I was told by more than one native that if I have a question worthy of an elder, I should offer a pinch of tobacco before asking, and then the rest of the bag if honored with an answer. I have already picked up a bag of tobacco just in case the situation arises. Have I been instructed correctly?
I appreciate any answers.

Sorry, but offering tobacco, is not my tribal tradition. So I have no idea.....

anishinabealltheway · 01-23-2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah

I was thinking about the subject of smudging at powwows
and again i meant no disrespect to tribes that do that at there powwows...
To understand what i am talking about perhaps some of my background is needed:
I have lived in many places in this country grew up on the Navajo reservation in Shonto and Kayenta but am not Navajo.
I have lived in Phoenix and Albuquerque and seen traditional dances of the Hopis, Pueblos and Zunis
ate with them and enjoyed myself
I have a Cherokee Father who is fullblood and have been exposed to oldways that still exist in eastern Oklahoma
My parents have divorced and Mom remarried a Cheyenne Arapaho
He has introduced me to NAC and Gourd dancing when i was enlisting in the Navy as a young man.
In later years , I have spent time with Northwest tribes and been to Potlatch

I went to my first Powwow when i was 5 years old and that was in 1966 and since then have been to many Powwows throughout the 60's 70's and 80's, mostly in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Arizona
And never once did i see someone smudge or smoke someone with out being asked.

When I first moved to Georgia in 2004 I attended several powwows around the Augusta area namely Rome Ga and Concord North Carolina and one in Evans Ga
In that short period of time I saw things that i had not seen at any powwow that i have ever attended
EVER
And it was in this setting that i saw this smudging and smoking!
He claimed he was Cherokee and that he was doing to this cleanse them
I know of no Cherokee tradition that does this before going into grand entry...
And certainly not with Turkey feathers and a mixture of tobacco and sweet grass
New-age

Now I see where you are coming from. I haven't seen anyone smudge with tobacco and turkey feathers ether and if I did, I would also think that something was wrong.

I am not familiar with the traditions of most tribes other than my own so I am hesitant to say that anything of the things that people do differently in different areas is wrong.

Those new age nuts are offensive to me as well as many natives. There is a New Age website that I came across where you could pay a few hundred bucks to take part in a "traditional sweat lodge" I was very disturbed at the sight of this. I'll try to find it again and post a thread about it.

**Josiah** · 01-24-2007, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anishinabealltheway

Now I see where you are coming from. I haven't seen anyone smudge with tobacco and turkey feathers ether and if I did, I would also think that something was wrong.

I am not familiar with the traditions of most tribes other than my own so I am hesitant to say that anything of the things that people do differently in different areas is wrong.

Those new age nuts are offensive to me as well as many natives. There is a New Age website that I came across where you could pay a few hundred bucks to take part in a "traditional sweat lodge" I was very disturbed at the sight of this. I'll try to find it again and post a thread about it.

A friend of mine likes to expose these so called Traditionalists
They are usually the ones that charge a fee of some sort and provide a service
They are usually non-native but have done business without some one asking questions, for so long they actually begin to believe there own bull****...
In my tribe we have medicine men but they do not advertise there services
You ask around and you are told where to go to find one
they dont come looking for you...

anishinabealltheway · 01-24-2007, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndngirl70

I agree with you. I always smudge before I dance. However, I was taught that smudging is a personal thing. Up here they have these super sacred smudging ceremonies in view of the public.

I agree that smudging should be private, I've never seen anyone making some kind of scene over it. but at the powwows I have been to ,most of them large traditionals with 300+ dancers and 7 + drums , the AD was always there at the eastern entrance with a basket of tobacco and a smudge. I don't recall an AD ever getting anyone in a head lock and forcing it on them, but they do inconspicuously smoke the dancers. It would hardly be noticeable to spectators.

Coyot_In_The_House · 01-24-2007, 02:22 PM

Now it just may be possible that those who accuse those of Yahooing just may be Yahooers...

01-22-2007, 01:38 PM	#84 (permalink)
Josiah PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oklahoma City Oklahoma USA Posts: 4,773 Blog Entries: 4	I was thinking about the subject of smudging at powwows and again i meant no disrespect to tribes that do that at there powwows... To understand what i am talking about perhaps some of my background is needed: I have lived in many places in this country grew up on the Navajo reservation in Shonto and Kayenta but am not Navajo. I have lived in Phoenix and Albuquerque and seen traditional dances of the Hopis, Pueblos and Zunis ate with them and enjoyed myself I have a Cherokee Father who is fullblood and have been exposed to oldways that still exist in eastern Oklahoma My parents have divorced and Mom remarried a Cheyenne Arapaho He has introduced me to NAC and Gourd dancing when i was enlisting in the Navy as a young man. In later years , I have spent time with Northwest tribes and been to Potlatch I went to my first Powwow when i was 5 years old and that was in 1966 and since then have been to many Powwows throughout the 60's 70's and 80's, mostly in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Arizona And never once did i see someone smudge or smoke someone with out being asked. When I first moved to Georgia in 2004 I attended several powwows around the Augusta area namely Rome Ga and Concord North Carolina and one in Evans Ga In that short period of time I saw things that i had not seen at any powwow that i have ever attended EVER And it was in this setting that i saw this smudging and smoking! He claimed he was Cherokee and that he was doing to this cleanse them I know of no Cherokee tradition that does this before going into grand entry... And certainly not with Turkey feathers and a mixture of tobacco and sweet grass New-age __________________

01-24-2007, 02:22 PM	#92 (permalink)
Coyot_In_The_House uhvdlv Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,980	Possibility..... Now it just may be possible that those who accuse those of Yahooing just may be Yahooers...

01-22-2007, 12:47 PM	#82 (permalink)
Gledanh Zhinga Blacksmith Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Santa Fe, NM Posts: 309	All the Way, I too mean no disrespect. I lived in Michigan for five years in the 1950's, and I could find hardly any powwows, except a few small intertribals in the Detroit area. I visited Mt. Pleasant, Cross Village and the Traverse City area. I visited Michigan briefly and attended a Walpole Island powwow in the early 1980's. I found no smudging going on. I was told that there was an annual Red Lake, Minnesota, powwow, but I wasn't able to get away for that one. I realize that the Anishinabe is a large group with people in the great lakes area, Canada, and even Montana. I was spending most of my time in Michigan. I know that Mt. Pleasant has the Saginaw Powwow now and that they have a casino, but nothing much was happening in the 50's.

01-22-2007, 06:30 PM	#86 (permalink)
Sleeping Bear Dances with Lead Foot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: She ga goy nak Posts: 602	OK, now I'm a little worried. I was told by more than one native that if I have a question worthy of an elder, I should offer a pinch of tobacco before asking, and then the rest of the bag if honored with an answer. I have already picked up a bag of tobacco just in case the situation arises. Have I been instructed correctly? I appreciate any answers.