THE CHEROKEE Thread

[kiowakat]

hey JGO..........Personally if I want to learn anything about Cherokees I'll take or get my information from a Registered Cherokee thanks , now any other Cherokee's that are out there and registered want to answer my questions??????? ..........

[sokoki_wolf]

well JGO i think the whole blood quantum thing is a bit absurb to put it mildly and ive stated before on pws.com why buy into what the US govt says,we are after all sovereign nations....im reading all this about blood quatums and this and that about full bloods...i think many who claim to be full bloods would be sorely disappointed if their lineage was really looked at...after 500 +years of europeans being on thos continent,i doubt extremely highly that there are many true full bloods left...whether thru inter-tribal or inter-racial unions....there maybe some very old people who are indeed full bloods but i would be very surprised if the number was greater than a few percentage points....the "imma full blood" hierarchy that exists is a joke in reality....
the open door policy of allowing people with out documentation to be enrolled can and will be the downfall of many tribes...look at the Pequots in CT,...one family played the game and ended up with a federally recognized tribe and a casino...they let in anyone who claimed to be pequot....soon their rolls were bursting at the seams and tipped in favor of the non ndns,who then proceeded to drive out the original family that got them recognized in the first place....but they did accomplish their goal of inflated tribal rolls...too bad it backfired and now you have a "tribe" with a very lucrative casino determining policies for legit ndn people....it will happen to the cherokees too i think....my own tribe did that back in the 80's and 90s...allowed anyone who claimed to be ndn to join...soon the non abenakis out numbered the legit abenakias,and i for one have a very hard time with the fact that non abenaki people whether they are ndn or not are making decisions for abenaki people....that situation has been changed so ive been told and thankfully too...i think the tribes need to seriously tighten up their enrollment requirements and create their own strict standards for enrollment....if a tribe wants to allow people in who are 1/128th then they must also realize that they will soon cease to be a true tribe and will become rather a group of people with a common past....all this scrambling for recognition and increased rolls is for one purpose and one purpose only...to cash in on the casino gravy train...its reaching the saturation point very quickly too and it wuill backfire and implode soon too at this rate....

[sokoki_wolf]

i have to keep wondering,why is it sooo important for everyone to be enrolled? if youre ndn and theres stories in your family that you are,then be happy with that...i think too it should be a pre-requisit for all ppl who claim to be ndn to actually live on a res for a while and see what its truly like to be ndn...that would weed out a great number right there lol....so why is it soo important? do the same ppl with mixed blood fly to europe and attach themselves to what ever nation there as well? what difference does an enrollment card make? theres only a few reasons why theyre in such demand and the main one is for money and benefits...noiw lets go one step more...do these same ppl who long to be enrolled still vote in state or US politics? do they accept bene's from the US govt? if they do that alone negates enrollment in a sovereign nation...you cannot vote in 2 different nations politics....you cant have it both ways...i think all the ppl who claim to be ndn need to take a very hard look at why they want to be enrolled so badly...is it for the status? lol where were you when it wasnt cool to be ndn? ever had a bottle trown at you cuz you wear your hair long and called racial names cuz youre ndn? is your need to be enrolled for the money?why should any one suddenly be entitled to things that others have sacrificed and devoted the time and energy to securing? whats the motivation behind youre need to be recognized and enrolled? if you are legit ndn thats all you need...if youre not, a good therapist may help you tune into yourself and help you find who you really are....

[sokoki_wolf]

im going to post part of a news story that was here back in january...this kind of thing really makes me wonder what the cherokees are up to...and it takes alot of nerve to undermine a legit tribe...and deny them i think the cherokee nation stepped way over the line with this one..same as the Louisana tribe that lobbied to have the texas tribes casinos closed...and the Govt sits back and laughs as one tribe wipes out another...way to go Cherokee Nation govt...youve truly turned white now.....
"Delaware Tribe continues fight to regain recognition
Wednesday, January 18, 2006

Officials of the Delaware Tribe of Oklahoma went to Washington, D.C., last week to discuss the tribe's loss of federal recognition.

The tribe met with most of the Oklahoma congressional delegation, the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, acting assistant secretary of Interior Jim Cason and other Bureau of Indian Affairs officials, The Bartlesville Examiner Enterprise. Tribal officials said they were encouraged by the meetings.

The tribe was removed from the list of federally recognized entities last year after the BIA lost a a court case. The Cherokee Nation successfully challenged the BIA's decision to recognize the Delawares as a distinct tribe. The Cherokees say the Delawares can't exercise sovereignty without Cherokee consent.

The decision led to the ouster of Delaware chief Joe Brooks. Jerry Douglas, the assistant chief and a candidate for chief, said the loss of recognition has keep him busy in recent months. "

"The Cherokees say the Delawares can't exercise sovereignty without Cherokee consent. " WTF? who gave them that right????

[JimGrayOwl]

Originally Posted by kiowakat

hey JGO..........Personally if I want to learn anything about Cherokees I'll take or get my information from a Registered Cherokee thanks , now any other Cherokee's that are out there and registered want to answer my questions??????? ..........

At what point did I say that I was not a registered Indian (not that it really matters). I don't believe I crossed a line of disrespect in this discourse, did I? If I did, I apologize; it was certainly not my intention. However, this conversation was about the Cherokee. I don't know how to say this without it being taken wrong probably; I understand your questions, however, the Cherokee way is probably a little different than yours, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I agree with many of the things posted here. (especially fake tribes, plastic shamans) It is a problem, but unless you can sensor language, there really isn’t much you can do about it. I have been approached by one of the “tribes” mentioned on this site to join. I respectfully declined, respectfully, because there were Cherokee in Virginia and a lot farther north a long time ago. I don’t know the family history or genealogy of these folks, but more importantly, I don’t care. I know who I am, I know my elders, teachers, and others. I probably disagree with how to handle it, I'm a little militant in other areas that I (a personal opinion) feel to be more important.

Many of our own people do not know the things that you ask. I'm not a youngster, however, I'm not an elder yet either....getting real close though. Now, there are certain things that are Cherokee and should only be shared with Cherokee, I respect that. I also don't get my knowledge from this, or any other internet site, but from our people, personally, as is right. I expect that you understand, as there are the same things in your tribe. If you’re spoiling for a fight, then look else where. You asked a question, I gave you an answer. If you think back, we have spoken before, I complimented your work, I respect your people and they have honored me in a certain way...so, what’s with the attack? I think that is a fundamental problem with our culture and sadly, may be our down fall, but maybe this is the Creators plan, I just don’t think so….

[JimGrayOwl]

Sokoki, I don't think that I could disagree with much that you have posted. Throughout our history, the "Politian’s" have made decisions that the people did not agree with. It was really a costly mistake for many of the Ross faction. But, that’s a whole other story. I'm glad you feel the way you do about the BQ thing, tribal enrollment, etc. That’s not what makes you Indian. And, you’re right. If most people went through their family’s genealogy, they would probably be really surprised, not just with the admixture of other than native blood, but with the mixture of other tribal blood in the east anyway.

I have a really close friend that I consider to be family that is from Mohegan (spelling) I don't really understand all the politics, but those run a long, long way back. From what I understand there are two different bands or tribes?? And, they still live by the beliefs from about 300 years ago when it comes to those politics. Very confusing, but really interesting.

[JimGrayOwl]

Originally Posted by Okwataga

Okay jim greyowl, let's say someone is a descendant of those that left the tribe and did not enroll we'll call them full bloods so this would be about 1800-1820's.... right now that's 200 yrs ago...
to be a descendant of that group and say that today there are full bloods... HOW??
someone either had to be mixed into that line or everyone had kids by each other and yeah you might still have a full blood in there but not likely as I don't think they would have kept having kids by each other - had to have gone outside that group of cherokees....

now like my sons' side of the family he has both western and eastern cherokee blood they did not enroll his grt grt grandpa(western) here on the boundary but gave his kids his blood degree(eastern)

if my grandparents had not had my dad, if grandmother had had kids outside the tribe then my dad would be the last to be enrolled here and I'd be a first descendant
if my great grandma had enrolled with her moms' tribe then i'd be enrolled as a catawba not a cherokee right now

but they did what they did and here I am
I was not raised here on the boundary but did spend a lot of my child hood here, since 1990 i moved here and am now raising my kids here, i could not imagine raising them down in GA at the moment this is my choice i made for my kids as they will make theirs for their kids, i can talk to them and advise them on keeping cherokee blood alive
but it will come down to their choice i would like for them to have kids with another Cherokee if not then hopefully someone from another tribe... these choices will afffect our future generations and what they will have to go through

I'm not sure I'm getting what you’re asking. Let’s pull a name out of the west, say, Rattleinggourd. At the time of Dawes, someone (male-female) was just not enrolled, for what ever reason. But, they live in the Territory, they continue to marry other Cherokee....they still survive today. I think that full blood may be a misnomer, and I apologize for that. It has never been a traditional Cherokee belief that you needed to be a full blood to be Cherokee, just that you have some blood. If we are honest, I would imagine that there are some in the CNO (not talking about the bands Q-boundry or UKB) that never had any blood in the first place. That’s going to get to be an issue, I fear, with the courts new ruling. Many of those people are considered full blood, but are not registered. We have a couple of them, that aren't involved with the people as far as I know, in the Valley where I live.

I hope that your kids continue their blood, just as I hope the same for mine. (not with those normal people that my wife comes from, they eat their own. I'm gonna get beat for saying that when she sees it ) But if they don't, and they continue to follow and learn the ways of the Cherokee, does that mean that their not Cherokee if at some point their BQ falls below 1/16 EC blood? I would like to think this is not correct thinking, but I might be wrong. They will still be accepted by the people, or at least should be.

If G-G-Granddad was on the rolls, and there is a lineal paperwork trail direct decadency, there still gonna be able to enroll probably, if not in the east, then in the west or am I getting it wrong. Like I said, one of mine refused to enroll, but was put on that list anyway. Unlike some, our family (at least that line) stayed culturally attuned, passed it on, etc. But, if they hadn't, would that mean that me or my kids wouldn't have the right to go back to the Nation at some point? I don't know, but I wouldn't think so, as long as it was for the right purpose and with a good heart. If that were the case, wouldn't that mean that every Cherokee that ever enrolled in a Christian church (don't want to go any further, so please don't engage me on this issue, I'm just asking a question) gave up their heritage, because Cherokee have their own traditional religious beliefs?

Having a "card" doesn't do a lot of good where I live. I wouldn't take my kids to an IHS hospital. We are lucky enough to be able to make a living, got a little house and a couple of old cars. We really don't need to drain any resources from the Nation. What does it mean anyway. All that is so called owned by the Cherokee, is in "trust" so who really owns it. So we are a sovereign, what if we wanted to trade with Cuba, could we? The whole thing is a joke. But, if we all (all Natives) stopped fighting, in and out, and took in our descendants, think of the power we would have. I don't think it would ever happen, but what if it did.

I like to look at it from another angle. Now, I ain't referring to the people who chose to steal and sale here, so let’s not go there. But, of those who are completely self sufficient, not looking for any hand outs, not looking to drain a program, etc. They come back, you look at em, they seem all right. They build there position with you over several years, and freely admit, hey I'm only a nose bleed, but I would rather be with you, than with those over there. They got some blood tie to our people, what’s wrong with making an ally? In a couple of generations, their off spring might have more blood than ours. They might turn out to be a really good asset. Maybe my thinking is wrong, has been before, but what law of our Nation is being broken. As long as they have no real agenda of a personal nature other than to learn what one of their ancestors were, and honor that, I just ain't got a real big problem with that. They clearly can't legally craft and call it NDN made (I know, I know, some do...but if we taught them right, and showed them why it hurt so bad, maybe they wouldn't.) Bottom line, there are always going to be those with that agenda. There are always going to be some of ours who will help em out for a buck.

The only thing I know for sure is that my opinion is my own, and may differ from others. Lets get to a more positive subject, this is kind of negative.

[sokoki_wolf]

Originally Posted by JimGrayOwl

Sokoki, I don't think that I could disagree with much that you have posted. Throughout our history, the "Politian’s" have made decisions that the people did not agree with. It was really a costly mistake for many of the Ross faction. But, that’s a whole other story. I'm glad you feel the way you do about the BQ thing, tribal enrollment, etc. That’s not what makes you Indian. And, you’re right. If most people went through their family’s genealogy, they would probably be really surprised, not just with the admixture of other than native blood, but with the mixture of other tribal blood in the east anyway.

I have a really close friend that I consider to be family that is from Mohegan (spelling) I don't really understand all the politics, but those run a long, long way back. From what I understand there are two different bands or tribes?? And, they still live by the beliefs from about 300 years ago when it comes to those politics. Very confusing, but really interesting.

theres mohegan and mohican i think...they may be two seperate tribes,im not sure...i know ive seen both spellings...

[CHEROSAGE]

Sokoki: To try to shed some light on your news papre article about the Delawares. Our Tribal Government was placed in conservatorship(SP) over the Delawares and some of the Shawnees in the area by the U.S. government way back before I was born. The Delawares and some Shawnees separated themselves from the CNO a few years ago. This caused some Federally Recognised Tribes to loose their Recognition. Their are many Tribes that have lost their FED REC over time and some have regained Federal status.

I do have a (?) for others arguing in this topic. Why is it any business what the Cherokees do if you're not Cherokee or have business with the Cherokees. This would be the same if any other Tribe came to your Tribal meetings and dictated your Tribal business. This is all I'll say of this.

[sokoki_wolf]

Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE

Sokoki: To try to shed some light on your news papre article about the Delawares. Our Tribal Government was placed in conservatorship(SP) over the Delawares and some of the Shawnees in the area by the U.S. government way back before I was born. The Delawares and some Shawnees separated themselves from the CNO a few years ago. This caused some Federally Recognised Tribes to loose their Recognition. Their are many Tribes that have lost their FED REC over time and some have regained Federal status.

I do have a (?) for others arguing in this topic. Why is it any business what the Cherokees do if you're not Cherokee or have business with the Cherokees. This would be the same if any other Tribe came to your Tribal meetings and dictated your Tribal business. This is all I'll say of this.

there were many tribes terminated by the fed govt in the 40s and 50s Bob...and a few have regain recognition,the menominees being one of them....what concernes me about what CNO did tot he delawares is this...they took the BIA to court because the bia gave the delawares recognition? what threat is that to the CNO? how did the delawares and shawnees that broke away cause any other tribe to lose their recognition? what the cno has now done is taken away another tribes rights(and i thought that was the govt who did that NOT other nds) and it has also set a legal precident now for any other tribe to sue the BIA for giving recognition...it makes no sense at all to me why one tribe would do this to another tribe...well except if the CNO was afraid of losing casino revenues...that seems to be the one and only motivating factor these days for tribes....i personally think its deplorable what the cno did to the delawares...and the govt sits back and laughs while one tribe wipes out another...legally...

[JimGrayOwl]

I see what your saying, and I must concede that you may be right. There was probably more at stake than maybe casino competion. One would also have to look the loss of funding for social programs. I don't interact in politics of this nature and don't really like them, they have been the cause of a lot of problems with this, and other Nations. If I hear a good excuse I'll let you know. But, for now I don't know any.

[sokoki_wolf]

Originally Posted by JimGrayOwl

I see what your saying, and I must concede that you may be right. There was probably more at stake than maybe casino competion. One would also have to look the loss of funding for social programs. I don't interact in politics of this nature and don't really like them, they have been the cause of a lot of problems with this, and other Nations. If I hear a good excuse I'll let you know. But, for now I don't know any.

i highly doubt with their casino money that the CNO is lacking for funding for social programs...i think this is a simple case of greed and power,same as what the casino tribe in LA did to the tribes in texas....looks like the CNO learned well from their white masters....i guess im a bit confused by your statement too jim...that you dont get involved in politics but in another post you say youre miltant.....its all part of the big picture....and if people arent involved and aware and make their voices heard about issues that involve ndn people ,then we're doomed as a people...with this flood of wannabees and bow tribes havuing other tibes terminated ,pretty soon there won