Jingle Dress Controversy?

Wagon Burner · 08-16-2005, 07:42 PM

I heard that at the DC powwow this weekend a man said that the Jingle Dress originated in Mille Lacs, Minnesota. This is the first time that I have heard anything about this. We were always taught that the Jingle Dress originated in Whitefish Bay, Ontario. When did this Mille Lacs story come around? Everyone I ever met and everywhere I ever went tells the same story about the Dress originating in Whitefish Bay, Ontario, Canada. What's going on here?

Mato Winyan · 08-16-2005, 08:08 PM

Here is a link to a thread where this and other dances are being talked about.

Myths dispelled at NMAI Powwow

shorty · 08-16-2005, 09:50 PM

ive always heard the jingle dress comes from millelacs ~
course when i was up in canada i heard it came from up their
well all i can say is its
its definatly ojibwe ;)

so larrysmallwood was an mc at the dc powwow? ¿

http://www.millelacsojibwe.org/cultureColumn.asp?id=115

**Roobz** · 08-16-2005, 10:08 PM

Here we go again...

I remember a few years ago on this forum people were practically bickering and saying that it really came from WFB while others stuck to the Mille Lacs one. I've heard that it orginated somewhere by Manitou Rapids ONT but I'm not going to discredit or say another region's story is false.

Ojibwe country is vast from MN, to NW Ontario, to Michigan just to name a few and I'm sure each region has their own origin story maybe some haven't gotten the exposure that others have which could explain why the Mille Lacs story left you scratching your head. lol

I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say, just trying to shed some light on the subject but that's my two cents worth...

Mato Winyan · 08-16-2005, 10:49 PM

Well if we are to believe his version...... it says that the dress orginally had "snuff can lids". Well then what about the old photos showing the small metal jingles like what Maggie talked about??

tradishjingle · 08-16-2005, 11:06 PM

I have heard the jingle dress originated in Mille Lacs too. I have heard many elders in MN and WI speak of this. I have also heard it originated in WFB. I have also heard that snuff can lids were first used and copenhagen lids were very desirable but they don't make them anymore. I also remember the old lids were collected and the lips cut off and they were cut in a v shape and then rolled, ouch the fingers would hurt. But, does it really matter? What matters is their dancers are respectful of the jingle dress and know the teachings of the dress. I enjoy watching them dance. What a beautiful sight to see them do the side step and they dance together and don't pass another dancer. Larry Smallwood has a decent reputation as a cultural person and educator. Me-gwitch

WhoMe · 08-17-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradishjingle

What matters is their dancers are respectful of the jingle dress and know the teachings of the dress. . . What a beautiful sight to see them do the side step and they dance together and don't pass another dancer. Larry Smallwood has a decent reputation as a cultural person and educator. Me-gwitch

AGREED!!!

**Mr Oakley** · 08-17-2005, 11:41 AM

I have heard of it originating both places too. I heard the WFB story first though. I don't really think it matters. I wouldn't really consider this a ' controversy '

shorty · 08-17-2005, 12:51 PM

i dunno i heard the very first jingles were thimbles?

i dunno what ppl think i cant remember who told me that but it was pretty funny stuff to hear

sooooo how do ppl feel bout jingle dresses made out of ~¿deerHooves?~
i always just thaught they were cool

**ojibwaysweetie** · 08-17-2005, 02:52 PM

Here we go again ennit Ruby! LOL.

Does it really matter? It don't! I've heard both places say it has originated in their respective areas. And you know, maybe it has! Maybe it originated in Whitefish Bay, maybe in Mille Lacs....but does it REALLY matter? I've danced in both places and when all of us are out there really jammin to the beat of a goot side step or to the beat of a goot straight jingle dress song, and ya can barely hear the drum for all the jingles making that beautiful sound together that feeling is the same in Whitefish Bay as it is in Mille Lacs. That awesome feeling of Anishnabe Ikwewak chi niimiyaa all together is the most awesome feeling one could encounter because we are all there dancing jingle as sisters and as one sharing that same level of respect for the dress. The way it should be!

There is no controversy.

**Kiwehnzii** · 08-17-2005, 03:22 PM

I agree. There is no controversy.

BTW, that second dude in the picture?.............................that's me.

Mato Winyan · 08-17-2005, 04:35 PM

Only time I think there is a controversy, is when people are saying they have THE answer.

What gets me thinking...... if we believe these things are from the creator........then why couldn't it come to different people at different places? Just like the drum. We know of how many cultures that have the drum. Can anyone culture take credit for being the first? We may have a creation story for it.......but that is the creation story for that particular culture. Same I believe holds true for the Jingle Dance. And yeah..........does it really matter?

One thing we all can agree on it didn't orgininate with the ............ neva mind........ I'm not opening that can of worms!!

Mato Winyan · 08-17-2005, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii

BTW, that second dude in the picture?.............................that's me.

Second from the left......or the right??

shorty · 08-17-2005, 06:17 PM

nooo controversy ;p

08-16-2005, 07:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
Wagon Burner Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 14	Jingle Dress Controversy? I heard that at the DC powwow this weekend a man said that the Jingle Dress originated in Mille Lacs, Minnesota. This is the first time that I have heard anything about this. We were always taught that the Jingle Dress originated in Whitefish Bay, Ontario. When did this Mille Lacs story come around? Everyone I ever met and everywhere I ever went tells the same story about the Dress originating in Whitefish Bay, Ontario, Canada. What's going on here?

08-16-2005, 08:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mato Winyan Gangster of Love Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,497 Blog Entries: 4	Here is a link to a thread where this and other dances are being talked about. Myths dispelled at NMAI Powwow __________________ "We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

08-16-2005, 10:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
Roobz jingle jangle mornin' Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: åt home Posts: 1,026	Here we go again... I remember a few years ago on this forum people were practically bickering and saying that it really came from WFB while others stuck to the Mille Lacs one. I've heard that it orginated somewhere by Manitou Rapids ONT but I'm not going to discredit or say another region's story is false. Ojibwe country is vast from MN, to NW Ontario, to Michigan just to name a few and I'm sure each region has their own origin story maybe some haven't gotten the exposure that others have which could explain why the Mille Lacs story left you scratching your head. lol I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say, just trying to shed some light on the subject but that's my two cents worth... Last edited by Ruby 2sday; 08-16-2005 at 10:27 PM.

08-16-2005, 10:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mato Winyan Gangster of Love Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,497 Blog Entries: 4	Well if we are to believe his version...... it says that the dress orginally had "snuff can lids". Well then what about the old photos showing the small metal jingles like what Maggie talked about?? __________________ "We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume Last edited by Mato Winyan; 08-16-2005 at 11:00 PM.

08-17-2005, 11:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
Mr Oakley >>:+:<< + >>:+:<< Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 1,066	I have heard of it originating both places too. I heard the WFB story first though. I don't really think it matters. I wouldn't really consider this a ' controversy ' __________________ Mr Oakley was here see my powwow videos here... www.youtube.com/oaklee84

08-16-2005, 09:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
shorty Senior Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 686	ive always heard the jingle dress comes from millelacs ~ course when i was up in canada i heard it came from up their well all i can say is its its definatly ojibwe ;) so larrysmallwood was an mc at the dc powwow? ¿ http://www.millelacsojibwe.org/cultureColumn.asp?id=115

08-16-2005, 11:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
tradishjingle Junior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Sunny Cali Posts: 158	I have heard the jingle dress originated in Mille Lacs too. I have heard many elders in MN and WI speak of this. I have also heard it originated in WFB. I have also heard that snuff can lids were first used and copenhagen lids were very desirable but they don't make them anymore. I also remember the old lids were collected and the lips cut off and they were cut in a v shape and then rolled, ouch the fingers would hurt. But, does it really matter? What matters is their dancers are respectful of the jingle dress and know the teachings of the dress. I enjoy watching them dance. What a beautiful sight to see them do the side step and they dance together and don't pass another dancer. Larry Smallwood has a decent reputation as a cultural person and educator. Me-gwitch

08-17-2005, 12:51 PM	#9 (permalink)
shorty Senior Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 686	i dunno i heard the very first jingles were thimbles? i dunno what ppl think i cant remember who told me that but it was pretty funny stuff to hear sooooo how do ppl feel bout jingle dresses made out of ~¿deerHooves?~ i always just thaught they were cool

08-17-2005, 02:52 PM	#10 (permalink)
ojibwaysweetie PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Heart of the Great Lakes, Ontario Canada Posts: 5,003	WuaWuaaa! Here we go again ennit Ruby! LOL. Does it really matter? It don't! I've heard both places say it has originated in their respective areas. And you know, maybe it has! Maybe it originated in Whitefish Bay, maybe in Mille Lacs....but does it REALLY matter? I've danced in both places and when all of us are out there really jammin to the beat of a goot side step or to the beat of a goot straight jingle dress song, and ya can barely hear the drum for all the jingles making that beautiful sound together that feeling is the same in Whitefish Bay as it is in Mille Lacs. That awesome feeling of Anishnabe Ikwewak chi niimiyaa all together is the most awesome feeling one could encounter because we are all there dancing jingle as sisters and as one sharing that same level of respect for the dress. The way it should be! There is no controversy. __________________ "Gaa wiin daa-aangoshkigaazo ahaw enaabiyaan gaa-inaabid"

08-17-2005, 03:22 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,871	I agree. There is no controversy. BTW, that second dude in the picture?.............................that's me.

08-17-2005, 04:35 PM	#12 (permalink)
Mato Winyan Gangster of Love Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,497 Blog Entries: 4	Only time I think there is a controversy, is when people are saying they have THE answer. What gets me thinking...... if we believe these things are from the creator........then why couldn't it come to different people at different places? Just like the drum. We know of how many cultures that have the drum. Can anyone culture take credit for being the first? We may have a creation story for it.......but that is the creation story for that particular culture. Same I believe holds true for the Jingle Dance. And yeah..........does it really matter? One thing we all can agree on it didn't orgininate with the ............ neva mind........ I'm not opening that can of worms!! __________________ "We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

08-17-2005, 06:17 PM	#14 (permalink)
shorty Senior Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 686	naawww nooo controversy ;p