Myths dispelled at NMAI Powwow

WhoMe · 08-16-2005, 03:42 PM

The National Powwow was one of education and sharing. The following are some quotes from some of the knowledgeable participants:

"I don't know where the myth started that there is supposed to be 365 cones and 7 rows on a jingle dress. This is not true." Larry Smallwood, Language/Cultural Director Mille Lacs Band Ojibwe.

"Fancy shawl dancing is fairly new and began in the 1960's. It didn't come from a legend about a butterfly. I don't know where people came up with that." Madonna Thunder Hawk, Lakota, Historian of the Fancy Shawl Dance.

"My grandmother said that traditionally, the only time women were supposed to hold an eagle fan was when they were going to be a part of a healing ceremony." Mary Louise Defender-Wilson, Dakota Elder and Cultural Historian.

"The gourd dance is NOT a veterans dance. . . Women are not supposed to hold the gourd when they dance." Tim Tsoodle, Vice-President Kiowa Gourd Clan.

"The Duck and Dive is a Nez Perce' dance that commemorates ducking to cannon fire in a specific battle that took place in 1877." Nakia Williamson, Presenter of the Nez Perce/Plateau Round Bustle Style of dancing.

"The history of powwow had Omaha origins. As it spread north it became known as Omaha and grass dancing. As it spread south it became known as Heluska and man dancing. Originally the leaders of the modern day straight dance wore what is referred to as 'crow bustles." Hollis Stabler Jr., Member of Omaha Halushka and crow bustle wearer.

"Geez, some of these drums have leads as long as an entire traditional song!" Dale Old Horn, Crow, Powwow Emcee.

*For a full explanation and visual interpretation of each of the powwow dances, look for the upcoming DVD produced by the Smithsonian.

cosmos · 08-16-2005, 04:23 PM

Yeah, and then there was the Illegals singing from Ada, OK.

Blue Devils Advocate · 08-16-2005, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmos

Yeah, and then there was the Illegals singing from Ada, OK.

LOL. That may have been the funniest thing in Saturday's edition of the Washington Post.

To follow up on WhoMe's post, Larry Smallwood's presentation on the origins of jingle dress dancing had to be THE most interesting part of the powwow. I definitely learned a whole bunch. He's a great MC too (he was MC at Salamanca - not at DC). Got that Dale Old Horn-type radio DJ voice. Both of those guys are like the NDN Michael Buffer. I kept waiting to hear "Are you ready to rrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmbbbbbbbbbbbbbble ?"

Mato Winyan · 08-16-2005, 05:50 PM

Just wondering if they said if the dance orginated with Maggie White or not.
Here are a couple links. First one is whitefishbay singer site.... sons and grandsons of Maggie.

Second one goes into more detail. Interesting read.

http://www.members.tripod.com/whitef...ngers/id9.html

http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/...owner/ch3.html

WhoMe · 08-16-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mato Winyan

Just wondering if they said if the dance orginated with Maggie White or not.
Here are a couple links. First one is whitefishbay singer site.... sons and grandsons of Maggie.

Second one goes into more detail. Interesting read.

http://www.members.tripod.com/whitef...ngers/id9.html

http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/...owner/ch3.html

__

Mato,

I have heard several accounts from different band members of Anishinabe. They are all slightly different, yet the same.

Larry Smallwoods version did not credit Maggie White as the girl in the center of the Jingle Dress origin story. All he said is that it took place around 1900.

In the article you shared with us by the University of Illinois Press, the four jingle dress dancers wore four distinct colors according to the author: Red, Yellow, White and Blue. In the rendition of Larry Smallwood's Mille Lacs version of interpretation, the dresses were red, blue, green and yellow. Of great contradiction is the statement by the author of the U of Illinois article, "Until around 1918 or 1920, however, no specific dance calling for metal cones as part of its regalia existed in Anishnaabeg communities." Hmmmmm?
__

I personally disagree with some of the information of the U of I article. Of particular note is the info on the fancy dance.

It's just simply not true.

Mato Winyan · 08-16-2005, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

__

Of great contradiction is the statement by the author of the U of Illinois article, "Until around 1918 or 1920, however, no specific dance calling for metal cones as part of its regalia existed in Anishnaabeg communities." Hmmmmm?

I had to re read this part couple of times.... way I'm taking it is they were talking about a SPECIFIC dance calling for using metal cones before the jingle dance came to be....and then with the jingle dress then they were used....At least that's the way I took it.

About the fancy dance you disagree with......that is not the fancy shawl part....right? Thanks.

**Wojapi4Me** · 08-17-2005, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mato Winyan

I had to re read this part couple of times.... way I'm taking it is they were talking about a SPECIFIC dance calling for using metal cones before the jingle dance came to be....and then with the jingle dress then they were used....At least that's the way I took it.

About the fancy dance you disagree with......that is not the fancy shawl part....right? Thanks.

I agree with WhoMe on this one. I think the article - while pretty good for the most part - puts the origins of Fancy Shawl about 15 years earlier than when it actually was. Just my thoughts. And everything I've ever been told puts that origin on Standing Rock.

WhoMe · 08-17-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mato Winyan

About the fancy dance you disagree with......that is not the fancy shawl part....right? Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad

I agree with WhoMe on this one. I think the article - while pretty good for the most part - puts the origins of Fancy Shawl about 15 years earlier than when it actually was. Just my thoughts. And everything I've ever been told puts that origin on Standing Rock.

Mato,

I was citing the men's fancy dance. The men's fancy dance (aka. crazy dance, fancy feather, men's freestyle, etc.) began earlier than cited by the author of the U of IL article.

Singerdad,

The origin that includes the most evidence (names, locations and dates) puts the origin of the women's fancy dance (aka. Fancy shawl, women's freestyle) within the Standing Rock Reservaton in North Dakota.

__

*"One drawback of oral history is, there are slightly different versions of describing the same event."

**Wojapi4Me** · 08-17-2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

Singerdad,

The origin that includes the most evidence (names, locations and dates) puts the origin of the women's fancy dance (aka. Fancy shawl, women's freestyle) within the Standing Rock Reservaton in North Dakota.

Yup, I was told Cannonball community, early 60s. I remember they had a special honoring at Paha Sapa Wacipi (black hills expo) back in the early 90s for the first shawl dancers. Pretty cool.

Ok, so was it discussed as to where this butterfly story came from? I mean, it sounds cool and all, but its just not correct so where did that originate?

morning water · 08-17-2005, 10:48 AM

Who Me, I must agree with you. The fancy dancing part was just not true. As for the fancy shawl/freestyle, this began in the early 60's. I believe it did start in the cannonball community....not certain. After reading about the myth thing in DC...I don't know where this butterfly story came from.

Also, I cannot agree with the Smoke Dance coming from the Osage? !!!!! I live in the areas of both tribes and have never heard that one. All the elders of the Seneca that I knew are all gone now but never once ,in all my years of dancing, did I ever hear them mention Osages for any reason.

I don't know the person that wrote the article but it really should have been researched further.

There is also another thing that always bothered me. That is seeing dancers crow hop to southern buffalo dance songs. Where did ya ever see a buffalo hop like that!!!! There are certain songs for certain dances. Learn them.

WhoMe · 08-17-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morning water

Who Me, I must agree with you. The fancy dancing part was just not true.
Also, I cannot agree with the Smoke Dance coming from the Osage? !!!!! I live in the areas of both tribes and have never heard that one. All the elders that I knew are all gone so.........

I don't know the person that wrote the article but it really should have been researched further.

There is also another thing that always bothered me. That is seeing dancers crow hop to southern buffalo dance songs. Where did ya ever see a buffalo hop like that!!!! There are certain songs for certain dances. Learn them.

**Mr Oakley** · 08-17-2005, 11:44 AM

[quote=cosmos]Yeah, and then there was the Illegals singing from Ada, OK.[/QUOTE

LOL, I was craking up over that too.

**injunboy** · 08-17-2005, 12:25 PM

i started that rumor about the butterflies. i was *alittle tipsy* and one thing led to another and well you know how it goes... lol

08-16-2005, 03:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,560	Myths dispelled at NMAI Powwow The National Powwow was one of education and sharing. The following are some quotes from some of the knowledgeable participants: "I don't know where the myth started that there is supposed to be 365 cones and 7 rows on a jingle dress. This is not true." Larry Smallwood, Language/Cultural Director Mille Lacs Band Ojibwe. "Fancy shawl dancing is fairly new and began in the 1960's. It didn't come from a legend about a butterfly. I don't know where people came up with that." Madonna Thunder Hawk, Lakota, Historian of the Fancy Shawl Dance. "My grandmother said that traditionally, the only time women were supposed to hold an eagle fan was when they were going to be a part of a healing ceremony." Mary Louise Defender-Wilson, Dakota Elder and Cultural Historian. "The gourd dance is NOT a veterans dance. . . Women are not supposed to hold the gourd when they dance." Tim Tsoodle, Vice-President Kiowa Gourd Clan. "The Duck and Dive is a Nez Perce' dance that commemorates ducking to cannon fire in a specific battle that took place in 1877." Nakia Williamson, Presenter of the Nez Perce/Plateau Round Bustle Style of dancing. "The history of powwow had Omaha origins. As it spread north it became known as Omaha and grass dancing. As it spread south it became known as Heluska and man dancing. Originally the leaders of the modern day straight dance wore what is referred to as 'crow bustles." Hollis Stabler Jr., Member of Omaha Halushka and crow bustle wearer. "Geez, some of these drums have leads as long as an entire traditional song!" Dale Old Horn, Crow, Powwow Emcee. For a full explanation and visual interpretation of each of the powwow dances, look for the upcoming DVD produced by the Smithsonian. __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 08-16-2005 at 05:54 PM.*

08-16-2005, 05:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mato Winyan Gangster of Love Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,497 Blog Entries: 4	Just wondering if they said if the dance orginated with Maggie White or not. Here are a couple links. First one is whitefishbay singer site.... sons and grandsons of Maggie. Second one goes into more detail. Interesting read. http://www.members.tripod.com/whitef...ngers/id9.html http://www.press.uillinois.edu/epub/...owner/ch3.html __________________ "We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

08-17-2005, 10:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
morning water Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 72	Who Me, I must agree with you. The fancy dancing part was just not true. As for the fancy shawl/freestyle, this began in the early 60's. I believe it did start in the cannonball community....not certain. After reading about the myth thing in DC...I don't know where this butterfly story came from. Also, I cannot agree with the Smoke Dance coming from the Osage? !!!!! I live in the areas of both tribes and have never heard that one. All the elders of the Seneca that I knew are all gone now but never once ,in all my years of dancing, did I ever hear them mention Osages for any reason. I don't know the person that wrote the article but it really should have been researched further. There is also another thing that always bothered me. That is seeing dancers crow hop to southern buffalo dance songs. Where did ya ever see a buffalo hop like that!!!! There are certain songs for certain dances. Learn them. Last edited by morning water; 08-17-2005 at 11:02 AM.

08-17-2005, 11:44 AM	#12 (permalink)
Mr Oakley >>:+:<< + >>:+:<< Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 1,066	[quote=cosmos]Yeah, and then there was the Illegals singing from Ada, OK.[/QUOTE LOL, I was craking up over that too. __________________ Mr Oakley was here see my powwow videos here... www.youtube.com/oaklee84

08-17-2005, 12:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
injunboy Ganado 3A North Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: nizhoni arizoni Posts: 1,650	i started that rumor about the butterflies. i was alittle tipsy and one thing led to another and well you know how it goes... lol __________________ thanks dad for showing me the way, teaching me the language, and not leaving my mother...L *original XXL * jus like McSteamie

08-16-2005, 04:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
cosmos Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 75	Yeah, and then there was the Illegals singing from Ada, OK.