Let's Talk GRAND ENTRYS

WhoMe · 03-30-2005, 11:07 AM

Grand Entrys are a normal part of most powwows today. Yet, most powwows did not have grand entrys 40 years ago. They were adapted by most powwows in North America and have since become the norm.

Where did they begin? Why was it readily accepted?

Some say they were adapted from the late 1800's Wild West Shows. So did the early Sioux (Lakota/Dakota), Pawnee and Ponca powwows (whose tribal members made up the bulk of Indians in the wild west shows) have grand entrys at their powwows at the turn of the 20th century?

Another explanation is that the grand entry was first seen and utilized at the Gallup Intertribal Indian Ceremonials. This was a pageant that started in the 1930's and included many plains tribes who grand entryed one tribe at a time.

Even in Oklahoma, which allegedly was the birthplace of the grand entry, most powwows in the 1950's - 1960's did not have a grand entry.

When did they start having grand entrys where you're from?

What have you heard about grand entrys?

Would today's powwows be complete WITHOUT a grand entry?

TallmanFL · 03-30-2005, 11:23 AM

I don't go back far enough to remember when there were no grand entries.

In my humble opinion todays powwows would not be the same without grand entries. The grand entry has become an intregal part.

Perhaps family powwows or smaller gatherings do not find the grand entry necessary? Seems that Flag Songs and Prayers are much more indispensible in that setting.

**Wojapi4Me** · 03-30-2005, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tallman

I don't go back far enough to remember when there were no grand entries.

In my humble opinion todays powwows would not be the same without grand entries. The grand entry has become an intregal part.

Perhaps family powwows or smaller gatherings do not find the grand entry necessary? Seems that Flag Songs and Prayers are much more indispensible in that setting.

Like tallman, I don't go that far back either, but I have spoken with many who've related that grand entries in South Dakota started in the early 1960s.

Flag songs and prayers can and are frequently rendered at dances where there are no grand entries. Personally, I don't care for the grand entry; waste of time. Just get out there and start.

I know many think the grand entry is some sort of sacred event, and I've heard of and seen a lot of people getting really upset and actually angry if the order of the grand entry wasn't what they thought it should be. I said on another thread, and I'll repeat here...if grand entry was about showcasing true values, shouldn't the elders be followed by the children? Then us adults bringing up the rear...

All of the old guys I've spoken with about this have told me that the grand entry idea came from rodeos. With committees taking grand entry points sometimes twice a day, it just seems like a way to further complicate contests.

buckskin pantyhose · 03-30-2005, 12:16 PM

Great topic WHOME! This has inspired me to look into our tribal powwow history to find out when the Grand Entry was incorporated into our powwows. I think Grand Entry is a very important part of the powwow, I see it as a way to honor our veterans, those who may not be able to dance, those we dance for, our nations, our leaders, elders, etc. I dont think it's a waste of time at all. Thats like saying singing the national anthem before any event is a waste of time.

One thing i always wanted to know is where did the "Head Staff" originate from? (As far as having a head male & female dancer) This is something that is fairly new to me.

sltate · 03-30-2005, 12:53 PM

I can remember Oklahoma Powwows when they didn't have grand entry, just the calling song and started round dancing.
I always thought the idea was adapted from the rodeo format.
I remember traveling up north, Rocky Boy, New Town, Rosebud, Crow Fair when I was just 8 or 9 and don't remember these pow wow ALWAYS having grand entry. It seemed to come about in the early to mid 80's in Oklahoma. Especially with Red Earth's beginning in 1987, but I think when point system contesting came about then there had to a grand entry for accountability for participating for points.
I can't really say when I say or participated in my first grand entry, it just seemed to slowing come about and then became the norm around here.

2cuteUTE · 03-30-2005, 03:01 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting question.

RedGrassdancer · 03-30-2005, 03:17 PM

A very interesting question. I think Grand Entries are more set up for contest dancing points. When the Eagle Staff, the Flags, and the veterans all go in, they only make one round and then take their place at the center and wait for the rest of the dancers to file in. Regarding the amount of the dancers, those in the center may stand there for up to 40 minutes if it is a large powwow. So in my mind, powwows can probably do without grand entries. The Veterans and the Eagle Staff can be honored with a special ceremony that would mark the begining of the powwow. That's my take on grand entries.

**chazziff** · 03-30-2005, 03:37 PM

i always remember there being grand entries. i too think they can be a waste of time especially on sunday evening when the committee is behind schedule and there's still four more specials to do and the finals of the hand drum.

i always thought that was messed up with the MEN coming in first the babies coming in last. stands to reason that the men should be "protecting" the youth and woman (if we indeed need protecting..lol) and be on the outside. we should start a revolution...change it up. why do the men come in "first"?

maybe having one a day should be enough.

**Wojapi4Me** · 03-30-2005, 04:09 PM

Now I really am wondering about the order of grand entry. It is different from place to place, but basically it's close to the same everywhere. Why do the kids and women come in last? Like most of us have been told, the grand entry came from rodeos so maybe they just sort of kept the order because in most rodeo grand entries the barrell racers and the kids come in last. ?????

raspberry · 03-30-2005, 05:26 PM

Like a lot of people, I also don't go back far enough to know powwows without GE. But I asked my parents about it. Here in central and southern Alberta, they also didn't have GE, they called the dancers and started to sing and dance. I've been told that the GE came from the rodeo way of doing things. I guess rodeos had GE's first and eventually became a part of powwows. But I plan on asking around some more to find out exactly when GE came about around here....cool topic.

**WocusWoman** · 03-30-2005, 06:41 PM

It's all for show, isn't that sad...

**Wojapi4Me** · 03-31-2005, 09:20 AM

Why is it sad?

I would be curious to see how many people would get bend out of shape if the order of grand entry was changed to better reflect the values held by most tribal people.

buckskin pantyhose · 03-31-2005, 11:30 AM

I understand where you guys are coming from regarding the order....but i think if we really think about the order we do things, the warriors...those who put themselves on the line are the ones who have always gone first. Where i come from the men have always gone first in ceremony, sweat, even at feeds, etc.

I dont think the order should change

WhoMe · 03-31-2005, 11:37 AM

At the majority of Mega big, contest powwows, the normal order of the grand entry goes something like this:

1. Eagle Staffs
2. Flags (and veterans)
3. Chiefs and/or dignitaries
4. Head Dancers
5. Princesses
6. Golden Age Categories
7. Adult Categories
8. Teen Categories
9. Jr. Categories
10.Tiny Tots
11. Late, half-dressed, stragglers who try and get their numbers taken anyway! *L

What would you suggest to improve this Grand Entry order?

03-30-2005, 11:07 AM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,555	Let's Talk GRAND ENTRYS Grand Entrys are a normal part of most powwows today. Yet, most powwows did not have grand entrys 40 years ago. They were adapted by most powwows in North America and have since become the norm. Where did they begin? Why was it readily accepted? Some say they were adapted from the late 1800's Wild West Shows. So did the early Sioux (Lakota/Dakota), Pawnee and Ponca powwows (whose tribal members made up the bulk of Indians in the wild west shows) have grand entrys at their powwows at the turn of the 20th century? Another explanation is that the grand entry was first seen and utilized at the Gallup Intertribal Indian Ceremonials. This was a pageant that started in the 1930's and included many plains tribes who grand entryed one tribe at a time. Even in Oklahoma, which allegedly was the birthplace of the grand entry, most powwows in the 1950's - 1960's did not have a grand entry. When did they start having grand entrys where you're from? What have you heard about grand entrys? Would today's powwows be complete WITHOUT a grand entry? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

03-30-2005, 11:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
TallmanFL Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Orange Park, Florida Posts: 78	I don't go back far enough to remember when there were no grand entries. In my humble opinion todays powwows would not be the same without grand entries. The grand entry has become an intregal part. Perhaps family powwows or smaller gatherings do not find the grand entry necessary? Seems that Flag Songs and Prayers are much more indispensible in that setting. __________________ Brian

03-30-2005, 12:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
buckskin pantyhose Bux Back At'cha! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 975	Great topic WHOME! This has inspired me to look into our tribal powwow history to find out when the Grand Entry was incorporated into our powwows. I think Grand Entry is a very important part of the powwow, I see it as a way to honor our veterans, those who may not be able to dance, those we dance for, our nations, our leaders, elders, etc. I dont think it's a waste of time at all. Thats like saying singing the national anthem before any event is a waste of time. One thing i always wanted to know is where did the "Head Staff" originate from? (As far as having a head male & female dancer) This is something that is fairly new to me. __________________ *BE EASY*

03-30-2005, 03:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
RedGrassdancer Dansin reel goot! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: n my own T P Posts: 218	Grand Entries??? A very interesting question. I think Grand Entries are more set up for contest dancing points. When the Eagle Staff, the Flags, and the veterans all go in, they only make one round and then take their place at the center and wait for the rest of the dancers to file in. Regarding the amount of the dancers, those in the center may stand there for up to 40 minutes if it is a large powwow. So in my mind, powwows can probably do without grand entries. The Veterans and the Eagle Staff can be honored with a special ceremony that would mark the begining of the powwow. That's my take on grand entries. __________________ "Dance me outside...??"

03-30-2005, 03:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
chazziff crossroads? maybe.... Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: can-na-duh Posts: 6,388	i always remember there being grand entries. i too think they can be a waste of time especially on sunday evening when the committee is behind schedule and there's still four more specials to do and the finals of the hand drum. i always thought that was messed up with the MEN coming in first the babies coming in last. stands to reason that the men should be "protecting" the youth and woman (if we indeed need protecting..lol) and be on the outside. we should start a revolution...change it up. why do the men come in "first"? maybe having one a day should be enough. __________________ All you know is when I'm with you I make you free And swim through your veins like a fish in the sea

03-30-2005, 12:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
sltate Senior Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: apache,ok Posts: 559	I can remember Oklahoma Powwows when they didn't have grand entry, just the calling song and started round dancing. I always thought the idea was adapted from the rodeo format. I remember traveling up north, Rocky Boy, New Town, Rosebud, Crow Fair when I was just 8 or 9 and don't remember these pow wow ALWAYS having grand entry. It seemed to come about in the early to mid 80's in Oklahoma. Especially with Red Earth's beginning in 1987, but I think when point system contesting came about then there had to a grand entry for accountability for participating for points. I can't really say when I say or participated in my first grand entry, it just seemed to slowing come about and then became the norm around here.

03-30-2005, 03:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
2cuteUTE Junior Dancer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Here-n-There, Everywhere Posts: 156	Hmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting question.

03-30-2005, 04:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,516	Now I really am wondering about the order of grand entry. It is different from place to place, but basically it's close to the same everywhere. Why do the kids and women come in last? Like most of us have been told, the grand entry came from rodeos so maybe they just sort of kept the order because in most rodeo grand entries the barrell racers and the kids come in last. ????? __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

03-30-2005, 05:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
raspberry Powwow dancer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 14	Like a lot of people, I also don't go back far enough to know powwows without GE. But I asked my parents about it. Here in central and southern Alberta, they also didn't have GE, they called the dancers and started to sing and dance. I've been told that the GE came from the rodeo way of doing things. I guess rodeos had GE's first and eventually became a part of powwows. But I plan on asking around some more to find out exactly when GE came about around here....cool topic.

03-30-2005, 06:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
WocusWoman N8tiffUmatillaMAMA Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Interior Alaska Posts: 2,727	It's all for show, isn't that sad...

03-31-2005, 09:20 AM	#12 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,516	Why is it sad? I would be curious to see how many people would get bend out of shape if the order of grand entry was changed to better reflect the values held by most tribal people. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

03-31-2005, 11:30 AM	#13 (permalink)
buckskin pantyhose Bux Back At'cha! Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 975	I understand where you guys are coming from regarding the order....but i think if we really think about the order we do things, the warriors...those who put themselves on the line are the ones who have always gone first. Where i come from the men have always gone first in ceremony, sweat, even at feeds, etc. I dont think the order should change __________________ *BE EASY*

03-31-2005, 11:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,555	At the majority of Mega big, contest powwows, the normal order of the grand entry goes something like this: 1. Eagle Staffs 2. Flags (and veterans) 3. Chiefs and/or dignitaries 4. Head Dancers 5. Princesses 6. Golden Age Categories 7. Adult Categories 8. Teen Categories 9. Jr. Categories 10.Tiny Tots 11. Late, half-dressed, stragglers who try and get their numbers taken anyway! L* What would you suggest to improve this Grand Entry order? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 03-31-2005 at 12:14 PM.

03-31-2005, 01:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
RedGrassdancer Dansin reel goot! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: n my own T P Posts: 218