Wojapi4Me

Well, I give up!

If you guys think it's ok, then go ahead - you're obviously going to do it anyways.

And people wonder why the Order of the Arrow has such a horrible reputation.

But, if I do offer this - if you think it is so ok to do these things, then please, by all means, make a Crow outfit and go show the Crows what you did at their Fair this August. Or better yet, come down this way and put on a performance of your OA Stomp Dance.

Have at it boys, I'm finished with this debate.

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If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

ndngirl73

if you're gonna come show us your newest Crow duds then make sure to get some braids before you show up and a tan....and when they ask you which family you belong to...

some of my crow elders might scold those people in public but some of them might just feel sorry for them...

i agree with singerdad thats it wrong--i dont think that emulation is the greatest form of flattery when it comes to tribal cultures. i think the best way for non-tribal people to show they respect us is to understand that not everything can be shared even if you like it. in most tribal worldviews there is no separation of what is religious and what is secular--we are religious tribal people in every element and moment of our lives.

here is where the real problem lies....you'll make an outfit thats from my tribe but you wouldnt come dance at my powwow in it-- you wont come eat at my table or learn about my people from a current perspective. why is that?

Blasphemy is never flattery no matter how you justify it or what color you paint it.

sltate

I like the Blasphemy statement. Yeah! what they said^^^!

injunboy

the order probably wasnt meant groom future crow medicine men, or even make anybody an authority on crows. i cant get hung up on white people wanting to be affiliated with our *junk* so what if they pay good money to hop around crow style. they arent crows and if they wanna fake it, let em. having a fake crow anything is meaningless.

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thanks dad for showing me the way, teaching me the language, and not leaving my mother...*L*

*original XXL *

jus like McSteamie

Sheila

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad Is everyone in this organization just hard-headed or what? No, not all of the dances we're talking about are directly "religious" but they do BELONG TO THOSE PEOPLE!!! Don't you guys get it? Well, apparently not or we wouldn't still be having this discussion. Crow styles belong to Crow people. Iroquois songs belong to Iroquois people. Stomp songs and dances belong to their respective Southeastern tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Creek, etc.). Why can't you understand that taking these dances without proper permission - that everyone else gets including Indians of other tribes interested in those styles - you can't do those dances. Or rather, you shouldn't do those dances. I don't see the difficulty in understanding this. Good grief.

I well understand your feelings about not wanting people to try to take over your culture and dances. The thing that I have a difficult time figuring out is how does one know if someone has "proper permission". If you read the OA history from when E. Erner Goodman first came up with it and adding the Native American element to it, he was getting information and assistance from Native American people. Now what their authority was, I don't know. But this is one of the reasons that people think that it is alright to do the dances. I'm not sure about the Crow, because I was not in that workshop. But the 'chicken dance' workshop was talking about the chicken dance being a modern dance that is becoming popular at pow wows. He told us a little about the "old" Chicken dance but said that this was not the same dance. But since I don't know anything about the old Chicken dance, I can't say for sure. When our dance team did the Cherokee social dances, we had someone go to Cherokee and talk with some people there about them and the same with the Iroquois dances. We only did social dances, and we had a boy who went to New York and brought the dances back for us to use. I think his relatives were Iroquois and lived in New York,this was several years ago,so I'm going on memory. There is a style of dance that our dance team has wanted to do for about 3 years now, but we are not doing it because we can not find someone who is willing to give us permission. We are respecting the people who own the dance, and if we can't get permission, we don't do the dance.

The first time I attended a pow wow as a dancer, was before I became an OA member (though I was a scout), and was given the flyer and invited to attend by a Native person who was part of the pow wow. When I started dancing, I didn't make my outfit, tribe specific. I made the generic T-dress and accessories and none of my beadwork was tribe specific. After I met a lady, who was a Comanche, at a workshop we began to talk about dancing and outfits. We wrote to eachother and communicated after the event was over. After a while I got up the nerve to ask her if it would offend her if I made my dance outfits in the Comanche style. She said that she would be happy for me to dance Comanche and she helped me with some of the beadwork I chose and gave me tips on getting a new set of cloths started. So...I feel as if I have permission to wear Comanchee style cloths when I dance. I do a giveaway when I have a complete new set of cloths, like my Comanche outfit, but I don't do it in the middle of the arena and make it public. I'm a little too bashful for that. I usually quietly give my items behind the scenes. But I try to do everything as correctly as I know. And when I don't know, I don't mind when people pull me to one side and correct me.

I'm sure that this is not going to clear up much of the misundestanding between the two groups; but I hope it gives a little insight into some of what is happening with in one small group of "white people" who enjoy the drum and dance and Native Culture.

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Sheila

2cuteUTE

Sheila-
Talking to one person from a tribe does not give this organization the right to use any of these dances. What I'm trying to say is one person does not speak for a whole Tribe......... I don't understand why this is so important for these boys to participate in these activities.

I want to be a Japanese Swordsman, a Middle Eastern Belly dancer and a Hawaiian Hula dancer BUUUUT I can't be what I wasn't “BORN” to be..............I'm not Japanese, I'm not Middle Eastern and I'm not Hawaiian............need I say more.

3D.Smith

"we are religious tribal people in every element and moment of our lives."
Personally, I understand that statment and therefore I have coosen to forgo on the tribal specifics for instance I'm not basing my regalia beadwork on any particular tribe, I am making it original (and getting it okayed here). I also agree with Sheila in that I plan to have current and direct permission before I do anything tribal related.

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WhoMe

I'm not sure how I feel about the National Order of the Arrow.

On one hand I have several close friends who were once a part of Order of the Arrow and are truly respectful and knowledgable about many aspects of Indian culture. (Even Indians go to these people for knowledge about Indian culture *L)

Then on the other hand, there IS the issue of ACCOUNTABILITY. This is best summed up by guest columnist article in the Hoosier Times, written by Edward J. Brantmeier, an associate instructor of Cultural Immersion Projects, School of Education at Indiana University - after a National Order of the Arrow Conference in Bloomington, Indiana.

Here on some excerpts:

". . . What is this Order of the Arrow? How does it foster cross-cultural understanding? Are the participants American Indian or were they instructed properly in the ceremonies of American Indian people? . . ."

". . . Several issues remain unchecked: misrepresentation, authentic representation of American Indian peoples, marginalization, appropriation, hybrity, cultural pirating, ownership of cultural symbols and practices, the perpetuation of the noble/savage stereotype, and the right to self-represent to name a few. In other words, who is representing who, how are people being represented, and is it accurate and just for non-native people to represent native people are questions that need to be considered."

"I just sat in a meeting of the Order of the Arrow (at the School of Education) and heard references to "arrowmaking," "smudge pots," "chiefs," "lodges," ceremonies" etc. . ."
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Hmmmmmm?

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"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

benbfishin

I do not mean to offend, but I must add something here. My boy is now in the order of the arrow. He is a decendent of the cherokee nation , going back to his great great grandfather. There are many who are trying to do it right in the order. And unfortunafly, many who offend and do it wrong. But for me, it has been a blessing that my son, who showed no interest before, now wants to know more about his family history . He is proud of his heritage, and I do not believe he would be as interested in learning the culture of the cherokee if it wasnt for the order of the arrow awaking his curiosity. Thank you We are doing our best to research as much as possible our heritage now, so he will not offend and get it right. I hope that the spirit of our ancesters will guide his hand.

Homalosa

With all due respect, if your son is Cherokee, have him learn Cherokee ways from Cherokees. It's good that the Order of the Arrow has sparked an interest, but they will not be able to teach him his ways. Further, when he approaches other Cherokees and mentions the Order as a reference, he may not be taken seriously. Think of it this way, considering religion. If you were Christian, Hebrew, Hindu, Muslim, or NAC, would you entrust your religious beliefs and traditions taught by people who weren't of those respective religions? Would you want your child to learn your beliefs by people who although claim to be honoring said religions, offend them instead?

Just food for thought.

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Honor and respect your elders!



"Until the lion learns to speak the tales of hunting will always favor the hunter."
-K'Naan
O-BAM-UH!!!!



www.myspace.com/thobackmuzik

www.myspace.com/asanicharles

WocusWoman

Good answer Homalosa. Overall, I've concluded from all the O of A threads on this website, that you have a bunch of white folks that are sick of just being okay with being white. Seems like they are always searching to be something else to me, and out of pure ignorance give groups like this one more credit than it deserves. Little do people realize what a disservice this group does to native culture, tribes and native people. It's all pure ignorance I tell you.

Homalosa

Thank ya kindly!

__________________
Honor and respect your elders!



"Until the lion learns to speak the tales of hunting will always favor the hunter."
-K'Naan
O-BAM-UH!!!!



www.myspace.com/thobackmuzik

www.myspace.com/asanicharles

lilmarty

I think the OA has gotten much better in recent years...there will always be people that misuse information and don't act respectfully, but most of the OA dancers I know are incredibly respectful and eager to learn. In fact, a few of them who have been dancers for many years have been invited to join some local native drum groups and two of them were invited by local tribal leaders to Sun Dance. The thing is is that most people that know them don't know they are in or started dancing through OA. They don't use OA as giving themselves the right or knowledge to dance, it was just a good way to get introduced to powwow dancing and some local leaders to learn. None of these people I know claim to be experts or invite themselves to participate...they have gained enough respect as people and dancers to be invited. Actually for some local activities, such as telling the public about the misuse of the indian burial mounds by a local city...the OA guys have helped local indian leaders a great deal.

In response to some other posts...the boy scouts only requires that you have a belief in something greater than yourself...other than that you can have any particular faith or belief.