National Order of the Arrow Indian Culture Classes - Page 3

DeusExMachina · 05-23-2005, 11:42 PM

double posted spam! ahahaha!

DeusExMachina · 05-23-2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad

I agree with Numunu...let them continue to do it wrong. Who cares? I can say from experience that they don't listen. They do what they want and could care less about what is right. Right is too hard for them. Right takes too much of a commitment. Doing it wrong takes less time so they can make sure they still have time for patch trading after the pow wow is cut short.

And them teaching tribally-specific dances like the Crow styles and the stomp dances is wrong, wrong, wrong!!! The stomp dance comes from my daughter's people, and if I saw a group of Boy Scouts "performing" a stomp dance, I'd shut the thing down right then and there. It's too important to be taken lightly. Do I have that right? Of course not...but I'd do it.
I've tried to help and have been an instructor at several of these...no more. Someone else can help them find the path to enlightenment or whatever they're looking for.

Hellyeah singer dad, if you see someone doing stomp, smoke, gourd, or any other specific dances, crack down! tell them to knock it off! If we all pull for each other instead of being all "well, it's not my people, so i won't get involved" we'd have a few less problems.

**Wojapi4Me** · 05-24-2005, 09:14 AM

In addition to the whistle fiasco - why this guy would give a kid an eagle bone whistle I have no idea other than he wanted to feel big and get up on the mic. The best thing for that boy to do is to find someone who knows about eagle bone whistles and how to care for them and use them and give it to them. Used improperly and not taken care of properly...well.....he'll see.

Oh, in addition to the whistle fiasco, I've also seen lots and lots of these boy scout dancers carrying whips. I've asked several of them and they said they were instructed to carry these as a "hand item" by their leaders.
Un-freakin-believable.

I would like for someone affiliated with these groups on this board to please explain on what level do they think that dancing Crow style or doing stomps or carrying a whip is acceptable?

Privateer6 · 05-24-2005, 09:47 AM

If by dancing Crow Style means the Crow Hop, I was told that it was a specialty dance for traditional dancers, similar to the sneak up, and permissiable to do. If this is a distinct, tribal specific dance, I really don't know much about it, and would encourage my guys NOT to get involved in it.

I've pretty much stuck to powwow dancing and don't know much about stomp, smoke, et al dancing and don't encourage doing it.

As for the Eagle Bone Whistle and whip, WHO THE HECK TOLD THEM TO POSSESS THEM! I know it is very hard to turn down a gift especially when you are a young new dancer and worried about doing the wrong thing. I've accidently insulted someone trying to gift me something that I knew I shouldn't have, did not know about all the significences and powers behind it, and did not think I should have it. The guy was ticked off even when I tried to explain to him why I was turning it down. Luckily it was in private, in the middle of a powwow, I don't know what I would have done if in the middle of a powwow. Your advice is what I was going to post.
As for the whips, those are not appropriate and someone really needs to talk to their advisor and discourage him form having his guys carry them. That's something that is earned, not made and used.

I admit I am a new dancer and still learning alot myself. I stick with the pantribal powwow styles and don't tend to mess with the tribal specific dances. that's why my knowledge on them is very scant adn I cannot comment on them except to say I don't think it's appropriate unless the dance/song was given to them. And how often is that, almost never. I say almost never because I have met an OA member who is a society member, and another who was selected to join the society. But again this was something the society members thought they earned and gave to them, not something they went after.

One reason why I love this board, Is I can gain alot of knowlege just from reading posts. If I have a question I can ask. If it is something not appropriate for the board, I can PM someone. It's one of the reasons why I tell OA members about this site so that they can learn.

**Wojapi4Me** · 05-24-2005, 10:08 AM

I'm not referring to the Crow Hop. I'm referring to the tribal specific Crow style of dress. According to the information posted by WhoMe at the beginning of this thread, the Order of the Arrow held "culture classes" and the Crow Style was one of those being taught as was southeastern culture relating to stomp dances. I believe it was called Crow Style I, II, and III and kids were encouraged to adopt this style and do the beadwork and wear these outfits. This is a Crow style for Crow people or those they bring into their families!!!

They were also teaching Iroquois singing and gourd dance. Teaching for educational purposes is one thing, but encouraging them to make the outfits and showing them how is a completely different thing and is wrong.

Oh, Chicken Dancing was in there too.

Sheila · 05-24-2005, 10:35 AM

[quote=Singerdad.... ........ I believe it was called Crow Style I, II, and III and kids were encouraged to adopt this style and do the beadwork and wear these outfits..........

They were also teaching Iroquois singing and gourd dance. Teaching for educational purposes is one thing, but encouraging them to make the outfits and showing them how is a completely different thing and is wrong.

Oh, Chicken Dancing was in there too.[/QUOTE]

Those crow dances and the chicken dancing that was taught at NOAC came straight off the dance videos that are put out by Full Circle Video. Most of the guys teaching the classes do go to that part of the country and see the dances done at various pow wows. When we get these instructional videos telling us that a particular style of dance is an acceptable pow wow style of dance, then the boys use it.

About hand ornaments: When dancing 'old style' is a mirror board and fan acceptable?
I can understand your anger about some of the OA advisors who tell the boys to use certain items. When I have questioned some of these leaders, they have informed me in a not so friendly tone that what they were teaching did no harm and they have no intention to change. That is rude and can cause justifiable anger. But, I can only control what I do and how I try to guide the boys; I have no control over others.

**Wojapi4Me** · 05-24-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheila

Those crow dances and the chicken dancing that was taught at NOAC came straight off the dance videos that are put out by Full Circle Video. Most of the guys teaching the classes do go to that part of the country and see the dances done at various pow wows. When we get these instructional videos telling us that a particular style of dance is an acceptable pow wow style of dance, then the boys use it.

About hand ornaments: When dancing 'old style' is a mirror board and fan acceptable?
I can understand your anger about some of the OA advisors who tell the boys to use certain items. When I have questioned some of these leaders, they have informed me in a not so friendly tone that what they were teaching did no harm and they have no intention to change. That is rude and can cause justifiable anger. But, I can only control what I do and how I try to guide the boys; I have no control over others.

Sheila, I apologize in advance if this comes across as rude - not my intention.

Just because something is on a video doesn't make it fair game to take. I've seen several of those Full Circle Videos myself and don't remember anywhere in there where it says that dancing Crow Style or Chicken Dancing is ok for anyone. Even if it does indeed state that, the video producers would be wrong. You have to garner permission from the tribe(s) who originated those dance styles...especially Crow Style. That's my point.

And those guys teaching Iroquois Singing and Stomp Dance...what's up with that? I won't go into it here, but Stomp Dance is religious in nature. Granted, there are some social stomp dances, but even those shouldn't be done by people not familiar with the cultures from which they come.

Sheila · 05-24-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad

Sheila, I apologize in advance if this comes across as rude - not my intention.
.

Yes, I know that about you.
That's why I'm here discussing this. There is so much that I don't know yet.

hoka grasser · 05-24-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bo Jangles

On another note....

I wonder if I could enlist the services of some of these cats?

Some of them are some pretty damn talented beadworkers, featherworkers, ribbonworkers, fingerweavers, moc makers.

I've purchased more than one piece of beadwork for my own grip that was made by a white man.........it's all high quality, first class stuff.....not indian made, but hell......who cares!! It's some classy lookin beadwork, fingerweaving, ribbonwork!!

LMAO!

Your Moccasins r who u r, that money coulda helped a skin out but you wanna look good. Our ways our family and frens make our outfits for it's all ceremonial, obviously you're caught up in the "show" side of powwow, trying to win the money huh?

sltate · 05-24-2005, 02:16 PM

No,No,No and again No! LOL
I will say it like I say to my small children then maybe it will be understood....If it is not YOURS, leave it alone.
Just because you see something on a video or at a pow wow does not make it yours to use. The only way to receive any of the clothes, dances, whistles, whips is if someone thought enough of you to specifically give them as a gift and that involves alot of thought, preparation and gift-giving and they are done at home celebrations and ceremonies.
It makes me angry to read information like this and it is disrespectful and degrading to the tribes involved. It shows once again that white people think they can just take away from the indians simply because we have something they desire. Why is that so hard to understand? If it is not yours, leave it alone. If someone wanted you to have it, if the Creator thinks you deserve it....you will receive it. Othewise, quit stealing our culture, find your own which I am sure is just as fulfilling as ours.

Sharky · 05-24-2005, 02:20 PM

Learn to dance class 101................$50.00 credit hour
getting haid dyed to look native.......$40.00
Faux buckskin material....................$32.00
Wanting to be native......................Priceless

I think we should open clinics all over just like karate studios. Mabey this is the future craze for fitness like an arobics class. you have all styles, and difficulty levels and it's cultural to boot. Who wants to go into business with their own native dance studio?

hoka grasser · 05-24-2005, 04:29 PM

Well it figures, thinking that so many other 'tribes' have adopted powwow, so now non-ndnz are doing the same trying to find culture after getting bored of making so much money. ha. But as it always has pow-wow will continue to grow and yes there are already other races out there dancing and singing, but there will be more...then come the taxes.

travelingmocs · 05-24-2005, 05:06 PM

This is a suject that has been beat into the groud. I think this is all funny. The person who started this board is a OA member, or was one and has taught at several OA events. There have been many elders from different tribes come to the National events. Now I do agree with many people, what happens at some of thease things is worng. And there are many kids who do this and do not take the time to do it right. But there are also many kids who do take the time and do it right. Hey look at all the Beadmans work, he teaches at thease OA deals.

There are many indian and non-indians at thease events trying to makesure that the right things are being done. Now it is hard to control what happens at these events, like you can not control what happens at a pow-wow.

**Wojapi4Me** · 05-24-2005, 05:22 PM

Everyone is still missing my point.

Sure, you can't control everything that goes on during an event, but you sure as heck can control what seminars are taught. Those have to be pre-scheduled and set up way in advance of this event. They aren't spur of the moment things that just happen during an event. This is what I'm talking about.

My problem is with the tribal specific seminars: Crow styles, stomp dance, etc.

Also, don't turn this into an Indian/non-Indian debate because ethnicity isn't an issue. I would feel the same if all the kids were full bloods and were being taught by people who don't have the right to teach them.

And, yes, Beadman does awesome work, but what's the point? We're not talking about loomwork, we're talking about tribal specific dances and cultures.

05-23-2005, 11:42 PM	#41 (permalink)
DeusExMachina Divine Scientific Genius Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: In yr house, clogging yr toiletz Posts: 805	double posted spam! ahahaha! __________________ Mad Scientists Union Local 42 Evil Geniuses For a Better Tomorrow The secret of my succes is 30% natural talent, 10% inspiration, and the remaining 60% is just the fact that I am nucking futs. Last edited by DeusExMachina; 05-25-2005 at 10:56 PM.

05-24-2005, 09:14 AM	#43 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,518	In addition to the whistle fiasco - why this guy would give a kid an eagle bone whistle I have no idea other than he wanted to feel big and get up on the mic. The best thing for that boy to do is to find someone who knows about eagle bone whistles and how to care for them and use them and give it to them. Used improperly and not taken care of properly...well.....he'll see. Oh, in addition to the whistle fiasco, I've also seen lots and lots of these boy scout dancers carrying whips. I've asked several of them and they said they were instructed to carry these as a "hand item" by their leaders. Un-freakin-believable. I would like for someone affiliated with these groups on this board to please explain on what level do they think that dancing Crow style or doing stomps or carrying a whip is acceptable? __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

05-24-2005, 10:08 AM	#45 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,518	I'm not referring to the Crow Hop. I'm referring to the tribal specific Crow style of dress. According to the information posted by WhoMe at the beginning of this thread, the Order of the Arrow held "culture classes" and the Crow Style was one of those being taught as was southeastern culture relating to stomp dances. I believe it was called Crow Style I, II, and III and kids were encouraged to adopt this style and do the beadwork and wear these outfits. This is a Crow style for Crow people or those they bring into their families!!! They were also teaching Iroquois singing and gourd dance. Teaching for educational purposes is one thing, but encouraging them to make the outfits and showing them how is a completely different thing and is wrong. Oh, Chicken Dancing was in there too. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

05-24-2005, 10:35 AM	#46 (permalink)
Sheila Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: May 2000 Location: Mooresville, NC USA Posts: 42	[quote=Singerdad.... ........ I believe it was called Crow Style I, II, and III and kids were encouraged to adopt this style and do the beadwork and wear these outfits.......... They were also teaching Iroquois singing and gourd dance. Teaching for educational purposes is one thing, but encouraging them to make the outfits and showing them how is a completely different thing and is wrong. Oh, Chicken Dancing was in there too.[/QUOTE] Those crow dances and the chicken dancing that was taught at NOAC came straight off the dance videos that are put out by Full Circle Video. Most of the guys teaching the classes do go to that part of the country and see the dances done at various pow wows. When we get these instructional videos telling us that a particular style of dance is an acceptable pow wow style of dance, then the boys use it. About hand ornaments: When dancing 'old style' is a mirror board and fan acceptable? I can understand your anger about some of the OA advisors who tell the boys to use certain items. When I have questioned some of these leaders, they have informed me in a not so friendly tone that what they were teaching did no harm and they have no intention to change. That is rude and can cause justifiable anger. But, I can only control what I do and how I try to guide the boys; I have no control over others. __________________ Sheila

05-24-2005, 05:06 PM	#53 (permalink)
travelingmocs Teen Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: HogPit, U.S.A. and raised in hell Posts: 297	This is a suject that has been beat into the groud. I think this is all funny. The person who started this board is a OA member, or was one and has taught at several OA events. There have been many elders from different tribes come to the National events. Now I do agree with many people, what happens at some of thease things is worng. And there are many kids who do this and do not take the time to do it right. But there are also many kids who do take the time and do it right. Hey look at all the Beadmans work, he teaches at thease OA deals. There are many indian and non-indians at thease events trying to makesure that the right things are being done. Now it is hard to control what happens at these events, like you can not control what happens at a pow-wow. __________________ If I do not know the answer someone else will!!!! Also forgive me, this system does not have a spell check so forgive the bad spelling

05-24-2005, 09:47 AM	#44 (permalink)
Privateer6 Like my new toy? Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cylon occupied North Carolina Posts: 775	If by dancing Crow Style means the Crow Hop, I was told that it was a specialty dance for traditional dancers, similar to the sneak up, and permissiable to do. If this is a distinct, tribal specific dance, I really don't know much about it, and would encourage my guys NOT to get involved in it. I've pretty much stuck to powwow dancing and don't know much about stomp, smoke, et al dancing and don't encourage doing it. As for the Eagle Bone Whistle and whip, WHO THE HECK TOLD THEM TO POSSESS THEM! I know it is very hard to turn down a gift especially when you are a young new dancer and worried about doing the wrong thing. I've accidently insulted someone trying to gift me something that I knew I shouldn't have, did not know about all the significences and powers behind it, and did not think I should have it. The guy was ticked off even when I tried to explain to him why I was turning it down. Luckily it was in private, in the middle of a powwow, I don't know what I would have done if in the middle of a powwow. Your advice is what I was going to post. As for the whips, those are not appropriate and someone really needs to talk to their advisor and discourage him form having his guys carry them. That's something that is earned, not made and used. I admit I am a new dancer and still learning alot myself. I stick with the pantribal powwow styles and don't tend to mess with the tribal specific dances. that's why my knowledge on them is very scant adn I cannot comment on them except to say I don't think it's appropriate unless the dance/song was given to them. And how often is that, almost never. I say almost never because I have met an OA member who is a society member, and another who was selected to join the society. But again this was something the society members thought they earned and gave to them, not something they went after. One reason why I love this board, Is I can gain alot of knowlege just from reading posts. If I have a question I can ask. If it is something not appropriate for the board, I can PM someone. It's one of the reasons why I tell OA members about this site so that they can learn.

05-24-2005, 02:16 PM	#50 (permalink)
sltate Senior Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: apache,ok Posts: 562	No,No,No and again No! LOL I will say it like I say to my small children then maybe it will be understood....If it is not YOURS, leave it alone. Just because you see something on a video or at a pow wow does not make it yours to use. The only way to receive any of the clothes, dances, whistles, whips is if someone thought enough of you to specifically give them as a gift and that involves alot of thought, preparation and gift-giving and they are done at home celebrations and ceremonies. It makes me angry to read information like this and it is disrespectful and degrading to the tribes involved. It shows once again that white people think they can just take away from the indians simply because we have something they desire. Why is that so hard to understand? If it is not yours, leave it alone. If someone wanted you to have it, if the Creator thinks you deserve it....you will receive it. Othewise, quit stealing our culture, find your own which I am sure is just as fulfilling as ours.

05-24-2005, 02:20 PM	#51 (permalink)
Sharky Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 28	Learn to dance class 101................$50.00 credit hour getting haid dyed to look native.......$40.00 Faux buckskin material....................$32.00 Wanting to be native......................Priceless I think we should open clinics all over just like karate studios. Mabey this is the future craze for fitness like an arobics class. you have all styles, and difficulty levels and it's cultural to boot. Who wants to go into business with their own native dance studio?

05-24-2005, 04:29 PM	#52 (permalink)
hoka grasser Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 13	Well it figures, thinking that so many other 'tribes' have adopted powwow, so now non-ndnz are doing the same trying to find culture after getting bored of making so much money. ha. But as it always has pow-wow will continue to grow and yes there are already other races out there dancing and singing, but there will be more...then come the taxes.

05-24-2005, 05:22 PM	#54 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,518	Everyone is still missing my point. Sure, you can't control everything that goes on during an event, but you sure as heck can control what seminars are taught. Those have to be pre-scheduled and set up way in advance of this event. They aren't spur of the moment things that just happen during an event. This is what I'm talking about. My problem is with the tribal specific seminars: Crow styles, stomp dance, etc. Also, don't turn this into an Indian/non-Indian debate because ethnicity isn't an issue. I would feel the same if all the kids were full bloods and were being taught by people who don't have the right to teach them. And, yes, Beadman does awesome work, but what's the point? We're not talking about loomwork, we're talking about tribal specific dances and cultures. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol