Innate Jealousy?

**Wojapi4Me** · 10-07-2004, 02:24 PM

I heard a speech by a guy recently who said that "innate jealousy" exists on reservations and serves to hold Indians back from reaching their full potential. He said that most Indians are their own worst enemies, and that the jealousy that exists makes most Indian youth strive for mediocrity to avoid being singled out as an over-achiever or someone trying to be white.

What are your thoughts on this? I tend to agree with his observations.

skaroreh · 10-07-2004, 02:41 PM

I think I agree, more or less, with that.

I don't know if it's jealousy or not, but I do feel that WE are our own worst enemies.

We are judgemental of each other. We aren't supportive enough of each other when it comes to doing positive things with our lives.

In my mere 28 years of life on this earth, I've also seen my share of backstabbing in our communites. Someone will smile and be supportive in front of someone, but behind their back, they'll talk about them and try to trash them in one way or another. It really tears the spirit apart.

I knew a teenage girl from S.D. who lived out here for a while. She was grateful for the opportunity to get away from her old crowd... the drinking, the partying, the expected promiscuity. She started making good grades in school and was really pulling her life together. At the end of the school year, she went back home and was determined to stay on the right track once she got there, but I guess the peer pressures were just too much... and her old friends made her feel like she thought she was better than them because she had started turning her life around. So what did she do? She got back into the same old bad habits and ended up getting pregnant. From what I hear... she's and the baby's father never had a stable relationship and she ended up having ANOTHER baby with another guy not long after the first one. It didn't have to be that way.

Instead of finding a community that was supportive of the changes she had made when she went home, she was torn to pieces by people who were probably jealous that she had pulled herself together.

I just think it's such a shame.

nativemom · 10-07-2004, 02:43 PM

I think that jealousy thrives on our reservations. We are the hardest on ourselves and to other natives. It is so hard to do well because when you come home...."oh look at him or her, they think they are good now....or look at them trying to be white" It's terrible. What do we do?? How do we overcome this as a people? I suppose it has to start in the home. If we raise our children to be strong and proud and build their self esteem, then they will be strong enough to exceed mediocrity.

I tend to agree as well because of my own experiences.

Smokin' Ace · 10-07-2004, 02:55 PM

I am so agreeing with you, Singerdad.

When I was a kid, I remember hearing the CRAB story. I thought, man that is horrible.

But as an adult, I have seen the ugliness of jealousy. When a person succeeds - people murmur "He must think he is something." If a person is a waste case, "Man - he ain't about nothing." It teaches our kids that they don't wanna be nothing, but they sure don't wanna be labeled "white" or "better than."

I have even been in conversations where my own partner asked me to "tone down" my accomplishments - because it would intimidate those around me. What the (bleep).

**CandaePrincess** · 10-07-2004, 02:58 PM

Jealousy thrives everywhere. Barack Obama talked about this in his speech at the Dem. National Convention. He stated that we need to become an encouraging people. (referring to blacks but basically minorities everywhere.) He stated a young black man with a book should not be considered "acting white". My husband went through that going to boarding school. He was surprised at how active I was in school, drama, debate, band, orchestra, student council....b/c he said he would've loved to have been in things like that, but there he did try to get in student gov't, and the other kids put him down..."why you trying to do that?" "you can't be a part of that shyt" or "quit trying to act like you're better, you're native just like the rest of us". I think it's sad that natives would put their own kind down. Grow up...get over it. Yes we were oppressed and yes we're still getting screwed over, but now the whole country is collectively getting screwed over. *L* I told my husband that the native kids used to talk about me too,.....calling me an apple (white on inside, red on outside) and things...but I never gave a shyt what people thought about me. I did my own thing. And to my family I thank them for that, for never making me feel there was something I couldn't do.
I wish we as natives could encourage our kids, nieces, nephews, cousins, brothers, sisters.....yada yada, yada......I never understood how we can be so jealous of one another........and yet we're the only ones we've got to depend on to make it to the next century.

fancy_shawls_225 · 10-07-2004, 03:02 PM

I think that this is true, going from my own experiences, there are people who have been jelouse because I do well in school, but I also think that there is a fear of doing well. A fear of what can happen when there is a lot of higher education going on. Maybe there is a fear that education means no fun, no parties, nothing. Which is not true, it is a myth and also there is still the residential school effect, which is still affecting generations and generations. yes, i do agree with that speaker that you heard.

**CandaePrincess** · 10-07-2004, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancy_shawls_225

I think that this is true, going from my own experiences, there are people who have been jelouse because I do well in school, but I also think that there is a fear of doing well. A fear of what can happen when there is a lot of higher education going on. Maybe there is a fear that education means no fun, no parties, nothing. Which is not true, it is a myth and also there is still the residential school effect, which is still affecting generations and generations. yes, i do agree with that speaker that you heard.

I agree with that too...the fear of success. It seems to be a factor with alot of our young men. It's strange how people think at times.

skaroreh · 10-07-2004, 03:09 PM

Smokin' Ace said:

"I have even been in conversations where my own partner asked me to "tone down" my accomplishments - because it would intimidate those around me. What the (bleep)."

What kind of nonsense is that? I wouldn't want a partner who asked me to tone down my accomplishments. I've accomplished many things-- and am proud of myself-- even if some of my peers aren't too thrilled with my accomplishments. Not to seem too preachy, if I had a partner asking me to "tone down my accomplishments", I'd be asking myself is this the right partner.

I'm making my own way in this world-- regardless of how it makes people perceive me. Ultimately, no one has to walk in my shoes but me. If someone has a problem with my accomplishments, that's *their* problem, plain and simple.

On another note... not that it stems from jealousy, but certainly stemming from that whole lack of support and unity thing... I have gotten picked on and snickered at-- even lectured-- for being bilingual (English/Spanish) marrying a guy from Mexico and having a lot of close relationships with Latinos.

That totally blows my mind considering the fact that the vast majority of Latinos in North, Central and South America ARE Indian by blood (even if they aren't culturally involved.)

River Spirit · 10-07-2004, 03:25 PM

fear of success and fear of FAILURE

If we decide we want to succeed and break out of familial or communal patterns of destructive behavior we are also faced with the 'what if I fail'; because sure as H*ll, if we go out there and try and achieve, be successful, etc., and we either aren't that successful or fail completely we are going to receive the criticism mentioned here, that we were trying too hard to be White, it served us right to fail...

I've seen this happen with people I know; so I know it to be true.

Smokin' Ace · 10-07-2004, 03:26 PM

[quote=skaroreh]Smokin' Ace said:

"I have even been in conversations where my own partner asked me to "tone down" my accomplishments - because it would intimidate those around me. What the (bleep)."

What kind of nonsense is that? I wouldn't want a partner who asked me to tone down my accomplishments. I've accomplished many things-- and am proud of myself-- even if some of my peers aren't too thrilled with my accomplishments. Not to seem too preachy, if I had a partner asking me to "tone down my accomplishments", I'd be asking myself is this the right partner.

I'm making my own way in this world-- regardless of how it makes people perceive me. Ultimately, no one has to walk in my shoes but me. If someone has a problem with my accomplishments, that's *their* problem, plain and simple.

QUOTE]

I agree - and that is an older partner - sorry didn't clarify. I am who I am - that is the deal. Glad you feel the same way.

nativemom · 10-07-2004, 03:41 PM

Who is the speaker and is there a transcript of his speech somewhere? I am really curious to read/hear the whole speech.

WhoMe · 10-07-2004, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad

I heard a speech by a guy recently who said that "innate jealousy" exists on reservations and serves to hold Indians back from reaching their full potential. He said that most Indians are their own worst enemies, and that the jealousy that exists makes most Indian youth strive for mediocrity to avoid being singled out as an over-achiever or someone trying to be white.

What are your thoughts on this? I tend to agree with his observations.

__

Sdad,

I agree with this observation. However, on the flip-side there ARE positive Indians out there accomplishing great things including keeping their families together, establishing professional careers, getting advanced degrees, learning and carrying on tribal culture and working to improve the quality of life for their people.

Maybe I am just lucky to surround myself with other Indians and peers who have a mutual respect and encouragement to achieve and help one another?

Does anybody else seek out people who will provide positive influences in their lives?

**Wojapi4Me** · 10-07-2004, 04:22 PM

The speaker was Dr. Ben Bushyhead, and the speech was given as the keynote during a recent conference held here entitled "500 years of pain: Historical Grief and Trauma".

The thing that always bugs me is when idiots say that if you go to college and get a degree, "You must want to be white." How is being educated and wanting to better yourself a white trait? Are Indians supposed to under-educated? Are Indians supposed to accept lower paying jobs as the norm? Are Indians not supposed to be doctors, lawyers, professionals, etc.? This is along the same lines of thinking that if you don't drink you aren't a real Indian.

Doesn't make sense.

Today's Indians have no one to blame for failure but their own laziness.

La + * Mom · 10-07-2004, 04:33 PM

I had to reread these posts a couple of times...and I thought that the backstabbing, jealousy and 'noseyness' was just on my rez! I used to joke and tell people that it was sooooo bad on my rez that if you hung out your undies to dry on the clothesline, everyone in the community would know and comment on what color/size you have..... j/k, but really, I do agree that we are our own worse enemies, especially at tribal election time here. I simply t

10-07-2004, 02:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,515	Innate Jealousy? I heard a speech by a guy recently who said that "innate jealousy" exists on reservations and serves to hold Indians back from reaching their full potential. He said that most Indians are their own worst enemies, and that the jealousy that exists makes most Indian youth strive for mediocrity to avoid being singled out as an over-achiever or someone trying to be white. What are your thoughts on this? I tend to agree with his observations. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

10-07-2004, 02:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
Smokin' Ace Arena Director Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: United States Posts: 4,112	I am so agreeing with you, Singerdad. When I was a kid, I remember hearing the CRAB story. I thought, man that is horrible. But as an adult, I have seen the ugliness of jealousy. When a person succeeds - people murmur "He must think he is something." If a person is a waste case, "Man - he ain't about nothing." It teaches our kids that they don't wanna be nothing, but they sure don't wanna be labeled "white" or "better than." I have even been in conversations where my own partner asked me to "tone down" my accomplishments - because it would intimidate those around me. What the (bleep). __________________ Everything is gonna be alright! Be blessed - got love??? This b me..... www.myspace.com/akayo

10-07-2004, 02:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
CandaePrincess Go Tera Go!!!! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: where it's at Posts: 9,246	Jealousy thrives everywhere. Barack Obama talked about this in his speech at the Dem. National Convention. He stated that we need to become an encouraging people. (referring to blacks but basically minorities everywhere.) He stated a young black man with a book should not be considered "acting white". My husband went through that going to boarding school. He was surprised at how active I was in school, drama, debate, band, orchestra, student council....b/c he said he would've loved to have been in things like that, but there he did try to get in student gov't, and the other kids put him down..."why you trying to do that?" "you can't be a part of that shyt" or "quit trying to act like you're better, you're native just like the rest of us". I think it's sad that natives would put their own kind down. Grow up...get over it. Yes we were oppressed and yes we're still getting screwed over, but now the whole country is collectively getting screwed over. L I told my husband that the native kids used to talk about me too,.....calling me an apple (white on inside, red on outside) and things...but I never gave a shyt what people thought about me. I did my own thing. And to my family I thank them for that, for never making me feel there was something I couldn't do. I wish we as natives could encourage our kids, nieces, nephews, cousins, brothers, sisters.....yada yada, yada......I never understood how we can be so jealous of one another........and yet we're the only ones we've got to depend on to make it to the next century. __________________ Mussy by birth.....Native by the Grace of God.......

10-07-2004, 03:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
River Spirit Senior Dancer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sacramento CA on the American River Posts: 800	fear of success and fear of FAILURE If we decide we want to succeed and break out of familial or communal patterns of destructive behavior we are also faced with the 'what if I fail'; because sure as H*ll, if we go out there and try and achieve, be successful, etc., and we either aren't that successful or fail completely we are going to receive the criticism mentioned here, that we were trying too hard to be White, it served us right to fail... I've seen this happen with people I know; so I know it to be true. __________________ "The Cleveland Indians are going to change their name. They don't want to be known as a team that perpetuates racial stereotypes. From now on they're just going to be called the Indians." - Native Comedian Vaughn Eaglebear, Colville/Lakota

10-07-2004, 03:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
Smokin' Ace Arena Director Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: United States Posts: 4,112	[quote=skaroreh]Smokin' Ace said: "I have even been in conversations where my own partner asked me to "tone down" my accomplishments - because it would intimidate those around me. What the (bleep)." What kind of nonsense is that? I wouldn't want a partner who asked me to tone down my accomplishments. I've accomplished many things-- and am proud of myself-- even if some of my peers aren't too thrilled with my accomplishments. Not to seem too preachy, if I had a partner asking me to "tone down my accomplishments", I'd be asking myself is this the right partner. I'm making my own way in this world-- regardless of how it makes people perceive me. Ultimately, no one has to walk in my shoes but me. If someone has a problem with my accomplishments, that's their problem, plain and simple. QUOTE] I agree - and that is an older partner - sorry didn't clarify. I am who I am - that is the deal. Glad you feel the same way. __________________ Everything is gonna be alright! Be blessed - got love??? This b me..... www.myspace.com/akayo

10-07-2004, 02:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
skaroreh indigenousnc Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 72	I think I agree, more or less, with that. I don't know if it's jealousy or not, but I do feel that WE are our own worst enemies. We are judgemental of each other. We aren't supportive enough of each other when it comes to doing positive things with our lives. In my mere 28 years of life on this earth, I've also seen my share of backstabbing in our communites. Someone will smile and be supportive in front of someone, but behind their back, they'll talk about them and try to trash them in one way or another. It really tears the spirit apart. I knew a teenage girl from S.D. who lived out here for a while. She was grateful for the opportunity to get away from her old crowd... the drinking, the partying, the expected promiscuity. She started making good grades in school and was really pulling her life together. At the end of the school year, she went back home and was determined to stay on the right track once she got there, but I guess the peer pressures were just too much... and her old friends made her feel like she thought she was better than them because she had started turning her life around. So what did she do? She got back into the same old bad habits and ended up getting pregnant. From what I hear... she's and the baby's father never had a stable relationship and she ended up having ANOTHER baby with another guy not long after the first one. It didn't have to be that way. Instead of finding a community that was supportive of the changes she had made when she went home, she was torn to pieces by people who were probably jealous that she had pulled herself together. I just think it's such a shame.

10-07-2004, 02:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
nativemom Teen Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North Dakota Posts: 263	I think that jealousy thrives on our reservations. We are the hardest on ourselves and to other natives. It is so hard to do well because when you come home...."oh look at him or her, they think they are good now....or look at them trying to be white" It's terrible. What do we do?? How do we overcome this as a people? I suppose it has to start in the home. If we raise our children to be strong and proud and build their self esteem, then they will be strong enough to exceed mediocrity. I tend to agree as well because of my own experiences.

10-07-2004, 03:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
fancy_shawls_225 Teen Dancer Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 341	I think that this is true, going from my own experiences, there are people who have been jelouse because I do well in school, but I also think that there is a fear of doing well. A fear of what can happen when there is a lot of higher education going on. Maybe there is a fear that education means no fun, no parties, nothing. Which is not true, it is a myth and also there is still the residential school effect, which is still affecting generations and generations. yes, i do agree with that speaker that you heard.

10-07-2004, 03:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
skaroreh indigenousnc Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 72	Smokin' Ace said: "I have even been in conversations where my own partner asked me to "tone down" my accomplishments - because it would intimidate those around me. What the (bleep)." What kind of nonsense is that? I wouldn't want a partner who asked me to tone down my accomplishments. I've accomplished many things-- and am proud of myself-- even if some of my peers aren't too thrilled with my accomplishments. Not to seem too preachy, if I had a partner asking me to "tone down my accomplishments", I'd be asking myself is this the right partner. I'm making my own way in this world-- regardless of how it makes people perceive me. Ultimately, no one has to walk in my shoes but me. If someone has a problem with my accomplishments, that's their problem, plain and simple. On another note... not that it stems from jealousy, but certainly stemming from that whole lack of support and unity thing... I have gotten picked on and snickered at-- even lectured-- for being bilingual (English/Spanish) marrying a guy from Mexico and having a lot of close relationships with Latinos. That totally blows my mind considering the fact that the vast majority of Latinos in North, Central and South America ARE Indian by blood (even if they aren't culturally involved.)

10-07-2004, 03:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
nativemom Teen Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North Dakota Posts: 263	Who is the speaker and is there a transcript of his speech somewhere? I am really curious to read/hear the whole speech.

10-07-2004, 04:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,515	The speaker was Dr. Ben Bushyhead, and the speech was given as the keynote during a recent conference held here entitled "500 years of pain: Historical Grief and Trauma". The thing that always bugs me is when idiots say that if you go to college and get a degree, "You must want to be white." How is being educated and wanting to better yourself a white trait? Are Indians supposed to under-educated? Are Indians supposed to accept lower paying jobs as the norm? Are Indians not supposed to be doctors, lawyers, professionals, etc.? This is along the same lines of thinking that if you don't drink you aren't a real Indian. Doesn't make sense. Today's Indians have no one to blame for failure but their own laziness. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol