Donna D

Perhaps, but no one is an expert on everything. He also misquoted the popular versions of the stories. That tells me he either wasn't listening or didn't care. If he didn't care then he shouldn't pass judgement on those who do.

Donna D

In the old days, many of the elders told the anthropologists a little bit of what they wanted to know, but didn't tell them everything. These stories are like that, they contain some truth and are good for mass consumption. There are some things that aren't meant to be told in entirety. I don't dance jingle but I have been told by ladies in the society that a jingle dress (to be made, as they called, correctly) should have four, five or seven complete circles of jingles with a cone for each day and a prayer said for each one with 4 extra cones for the directions. I know a lot of the dresses one sees these days don't follow those directions, but that is the way I was told.

eeyouskow

There are Natives out there who do that for a living, dance for tourists which I think is something we shouldnt have to do to have a job but I guess some people need the work too. But sometimes the tourists are native too. I think those who only dance for non-natives are doing it for the money, or the enjoyment of seeing others being impressed by their dancing. I mean, it's a job too I guess. Cant really criticize. But I would think that dancing amongst your own people would be the most satisfying. Those who dont feel that way end up coming around at some point anyways.

Kakeeya

I hope you're not referring to our butterfly dance. It's a social dance of ours and not a powwow dance, theres probably other stories like WhoMe mentioned the cacoon, but I only mentioned it cuz it sounded similar to our dance. When I spoke of it, I gave the really short version of it and I left out a lot of important details and also never mentioned the way the dance is danced, as I don't want this story to be taken and be spread all over.
WhoMe is very knowledgeable, I don't think he claims to know everything but he is very well informed.

WhoMe

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Thanks Kaykeeya,

Yes, I am on pws.com to learn like everyone else. I readily admit "I certainly don't know everything." But if I ask the right questions, my quest for knowledge will be inhanced. I ask the people I trust. No, the Cocoon Story I am referring to comes from the east coast. Like in Georgia, where Donna D. is from *smile.

DonnaD:

Thanks for following me into another thread. It's flattering! I always wanted to speak to a Cherokee from Georgia about Powwow History. I like your version of the Jingle dress dance. Especially the part where "(You) have been told by ladies in the society that a jingle dress (to be made, as they called, correctly) should have four, five or seven complete circles of jingles with a cone for each day and a prayer said for each one with 4 extra cones for the directions."

Go check out the Jingle Dress forum under: 365 Cones. Then you will see that these are not my words but the words of the Anishinabe Kwe that I have quoted.

Just because a story is popular, DOESN'T make it correct. If an elder in your part of the country is telling you these stories, I don't mean any respect, but is the elder of these tribes that the dance comes from?

If a Cherokee elder told me the meaning of the Jingle dress, I would be inclined to get a second opinion from an Anishinabe Ogitchidakwe.



Sorry, it's just how I do things :dontknow:

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"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

metisgirl

This is such an interesting conversation I just had to join in. Seperated from my native heritage at birth I have recently received my Metis status. I attended my first Powwow several years ago and found it to be a wonderful educational and spirtitual experience. I cannot imagine any person who attends a Powwow not coming away with an awareness of Aboriginal culture. There are thousands of cultures out there and if the people did not share them with others how could we ever understand and respect them.

I know that many people dance for many different reasons, but if during that moment when you are dancing for whatever reason and you touch the lives of non natives then you are accomplishing much more than just fufilling your own passion. You are showing the world who you are and forgive me for this but I do believe that if native peoples are going to continue to rise from the past it will be from the pride that you take in being who you are and showing that to the world in all facets of your lives.

I might add that since my first Powwow I have read as much as I can on this event. I have studied the different dances and I marvel at the regalia and the history that its represents. I have well over 1500 photos that I have taken to document my trips to Powwows and I tell anyone who will listen that if they really want to understand Aboriginal people they must make the effort to attend a Powwow or do not ever express their interpretation in my hearing of what they "think" "Indians" are all about. I know that the Powwow is just one facet of your(mine now) culture but it can be a great beginning for people to become more aware.

In a post several weeks ago I commented on the great message that is sent by the dancers and I was sort of ridiculed for that. I am sorry but when the Grand Entry occurs and dance circle is filled with dancers it is a powerful message and if dancers take it upon themselves to go out and dance to educate then go for it.

Several weeks ago I went by myself to the Kamloopa Powwow, set up my little tent and had a blast. When I got back to work several people who view Native people as something scarey asked me if I did not think that was a dangerous thing to do. I said absolutely not, I felt safer there then I have felt in many other places. I fell asleep around 1 am to the sounds of the singers, the drums and the tinkling of bells as the dancers went back and forth by my tent. I slept like a baby.

ojibwaysweetie

What ladies in what society, may I ask? And where is this "society", may I ask again?

I am a full blooded Ojibway woman from Canada and a Jingle Dress Dancer. In our traditional traditional way - a dream must come first. From there, there are certain things to do before even putting our dress on . Sorry to say but those that you have mentioned here in your post are not exactly correct. I'm only defending my way. No hurt intended by any means.

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ojibwaysweetie

Whome did not misquote the Jingle Dress. (if that is one of the "misquoted popular versions" you are referring to). I agree with Kakeeya and Kiwehnzi.....Whome is well informed, furthermore takes the time out to ask and learn from the source, the original people who own those specific dances. He has much respect from me!

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ojibwaysweetie

The city I live by is not big, more small-scale. The little dance troupe here are comprised of knowledgeable Native people and I have seen them perform at the schools. They keep it "real". I myself have been a small part of it, explained what I could about Jingle Dress dancing. I've been into the schools before and also have talked to the Native children about the Dress. I felt more at ease "performing for the Native community rather than the Non-native people. Kind of feel like a token ndn for the white people. lol. But also was afraid to "tell too much", so tried my best to keep it low key. It went over well, so I personally would have to say we did our best to educate and not exploit other tribes' ways to the non-indian people here in my town.

I'd like to hear from the bigger dance troupes who perform in larger cities and schools. I would hope they keep it real and not get into wild stories making them non indians believe anything. lol. To me, that'd be crossing that line exploiting other tribes' ways.

But, thats JustMe.

*L*

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Donna D

Sorry, I won't be baited, but the elder who was speaking of the proper way to make a jingle dress was from the Cattarragus (spelling?) reservation in upstate New York. I wouldn't ask the advice from someone in Georgia, nor am I from Georgia either, I moved here for a job.

Donna D

I also read a historical text (can't remember where right now) where the elder the writer was speaking to was lamenting that girls didn't know how to dance the proper jingle steps anymore, that the steps were originally supposed to resemble "The Charleston." I was a bit surprised, but, hey, that's what she said. Or at least, the writer said she said it.

ojibwaysweetie

To be real PROPER, that teaching really atta come from the Ojibway Elder Jingle Dress Dancers :)
No disrespect from me.

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Donna D

Oh, none taken, she's just a clan mother in the longhouse, she probably doesn't know anything.

Kakeeya

You're talking about Iroquois or Haudenosaunee people the jingle dress comes from the Ojibway or Anishinaabe, two very distint Nations.

Singing Eagle

I'm sure your longhouse clan mother friend is quite knowledgeable about dances that take place in the longhouse - and as such should be the main source of info for that.

For Anishinabe jingle dress - it would be best to consult someone who is Anishinabe and who is respected and recognised as a teacher or elder.

You're correct that no one person knows everything - which is why we need to consult with people who are from that tribe or nation. We also need to remember that many times people are given their gift in a way that is unique to them and as such only applies to them and maybe their family.

So let's quit fighting and arguing about the right way and the wrong way and just strive to do things in a GOOD way.