Purpose of grand entry points?

**Wojapi4Me** · 07-14-2004, 03:16 PM

What is the purpose of taking grand entry points? I've always looked at dance contests as trying to find the best dancers in that category. What does parading into the arena like cattle have to do with being the best? I'd like to see pow wow commitees get away from this practice and just make the contests the contests and leave it at that.

Do away with spot checks too...if dancers want to dance intertribals and have fun, that's their perogative. If they don't, they shouldn't have to.

kamikaze_yazzie · 07-14-2004, 03:24 PM

I personally like the point system....its like getting something extra for good behavior *L.

I think without it there would be tons of people coming saturday night 5 minutes before contest and leaving as soon as they were done. And if they did win, it wouldnt be fair to those who were there the whole time participating and enjoying the hard work the commitee puts into the event.

Dunno what to say about the cattle part, who ya calling a cow?! *lmao*

**Wojapi4Me** · 07-14-2004, 04:15 PM

I made the cattle reference as a jibe towards where the grand entry concept came from - rodeos.

i've been pow wowing for a long time now, and I can say that I've only ever seen it happen once where a contestant showed up at the last minute and placed. Come to find out he meant to be there earlier, but in true Indian fashion had car troubles. He was a nice man and a good fancy dancer.

Most pow wow people, whether they contest or not, do really love to dance and will still dance in grand entry and most intertribals whether points are being taken or not. Granted, some are only there for the money and won't dance if it won't help them win the moolah, but who cares? In the end run, you're winning out because you truly love to dance.

Tiyospaye Yazzie · 07-14-2004, 04:40 PM

What is the point system anyways. Is every powwow going by the same point system? Is their even a standard for points? I don't know, all I came to know is that grand entry points and spot check points are obsolete, I have yet to meet someone that has won on account that they got the points from grand entry or spot checks. You know what would be nice though? It would be nice if they would announce how many points you got, or post the points that you compiled at the end of the powwow, like at rodeos. Why keep 'em such a secret and charge fees to keep people at bay, huh. Does anyone even know the points given to each place? I don't.

quicksilverwade · 07-14-2004, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyospaye Yazzie

What is the point system anyways. Is every powwow going by the same point system? Is their even a standard for points? I don't know, all I came to know is that grand entry points and spot check points are obsolete, I have yet to meet someone that has won on account that they got the points from grand entry or spot checks. You know what would be nice though? It would be nice if they would announce how many points you got, or post the points that you compiled at the end of the powwow, like at rodeos. Why keep 'em such a secret and charge fees to keep people at bay, huh. Does anyone even know the points given to each place? I don't.

Tricia Withorne is a fancy shawl dancer who placed in front of Melanie Mathews during the UCLA powwow in 96'. She even missed her contest song but she was able to accumulate points through the spot checks, exhibition and grand entries.

WhoMe · 07-14-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamikaze_yazzie

I think without it there would be tons of people coming saturday night 5 minutes before contest and leaving as soon as they were done. And if they did win, it wouldnt be fair to those who were there the whole time participating and enjoying the hard work the commitee puts into the event.

___

I agree with KYazzie about the contestants coming in, competing and leaving.

In the evolution of dance competition . . . the first dance contest was held at the 101 Ranch in northern Oklahoma. It was a simple contest that involved two contestants and was decided by audience applause.

The first national contest took place at the Haskell Indian Institute in Lawrence, Kansas. From this point on contests for prize money, spread throughout Indian country.

The point system was created to establish a standardized criteria for determining Indian dance competition results. Among this criteria, were points for the grand entry that would encourage dancers to participate from the very beginning of the powwow.

Evolving into the point system were spot checks (I agree with Singerdad in that I can't stand them). This was meant to ensure that dancers stay in the dance arena during the powwow. (Any competitor who has been following the powwow circuit for more that 10 years can attest to missing out on points due to missing a spot check somewhere).

Later, some powwows added grand "exit" points to ensure that dancers would stay until the end.

My personal beef with the point system is "a person who is a superior dancer can be beat by an average dancer who makes all their grand entries and spot checks."

Maybe the "dance contest winner" should be change to "point system champion" - to distinguish the two?

Tiyospaye Yazzie · 07-14-2004, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksilverwade

Tricia Withorne is a fancy shawl dancer who placed in front of Melanie Mathews during the UCLA powwow in 96'. She even missed her contest song but she was able to accumulate points through the spot checks, exhibition and grand entries.

Thanks for sharing the story. Wow missed a few contest songs and still won huh. I got to make it to that powwow sometime in my future.

kamikaze_yazzie · 07-14-2004, 05:13 PM

The spot checks and GE points help with ties too. Usually it ends up being the difference between coming in 1st or 2nd.. and id like to think that the person who put in the time and effort gets the edge.

As for the points - some powwows do post the points youll get for spotcheck, GE, and judging scores. sometimes it helps sometimes it doesnt. But in the end the judges have the power *L...

nailbreaker4 · 07-14-2004, 06:33 PM

hahaha!!!:D my lil' bro won third in boy's traditional (with about 6 kids in the category). He got points for all his grand entries and even a grand exit. But the weird thing was that he was a grass dancer. He dance in the jr. grass category but accidently signed up for jr. boys traditional. The other boys must have missed out on grand entry and exit points.

That still makes me laugh when I hear it...:D:D:D:D

but yeah- I think the point system is alright... but I must stick up for grand entries: they may have originated from the rodeo concept but they have evolved to be so much more. Most importantly getting all the dancers on the floor to see who is all there, then doing an opening prayer and then the flag and victory song. It has a lot meaning to it and is a great way to start out a powwow session.

**Kiwehnzii** · 07-14-2004, 06:43 PM

According to Whome,(another forum) the powwow started as a means to give honor and I agree. It is an honor to win/place at any contest. But we have to work for that honor. Sitting around all day waiting for your contest to come up is not what I would call "good work ethics".
Being late is not "good work ethics".

A warrior is "always" ready to do battle. If not, it could mean being wounded or even death. I liken the dance warrior to a battle warrior. Training, practicing, being well-equipped. Being ever ready. Getting right into the battle right from the start, hanging in their right to the end. Not, running in after your comrades have tired and you are fresh and well-rested and stealing the glory. That's weak. That's taking the easy way out.

You have to work for the honor.

Mr Bo Jangles · 07-14-2004, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii

According to Whome,(another forum) the powwow started as a means to give honor and I agree. It is an honor to win/place at any contest. But we have to work for that honor. Sitting around all day waiting for your contest to come up is not what I would call "good work ethics".
Being late is not "good work ethics".

A warrior is "always" ready to do battle. If not, it could mean being wounded or even death. I liken the dance warrior to a battle warrior. Training, practicing, being well-equipped. Being ever ready. Getting right into the battle right from the start, hanging in their right to the end. Not, running in after your comrades have tired and you are fresh and well-rested and stealing the glory. That's weak. That's taking the easy way out.

You have to work for the honor.

Maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but, I agree in this manner.

If you think you got moves and you think you can rely on your name all the time to win....only to get beat out on account of a lack of points.

POWER TO THE ONES WHO STUCK IT OUT IN THE HEAT, IN THE COLD, DANCED EVERY INTERTRIBAL, WE'RE READY AND ON TIME FOR GRAND ENTRY, FOR THEIR CONTEST AND FOR THE SPOT CHECKS!!!

They deserved that win!!

The other guy who sat idlly by, who might be a great dancer, should have had his keester in there dancing anyway!!

...my own personal beef is somewhat along those lines.

Why is it you make ALL the point thingies, spot checks, grand entries, exits.....and you don't see the BIG NAMES out there, yet they win. Even more than that....the BIG NAMES come in late on their contest song.....or even drop items and get in.

Personally, I've seen some good no name dancers get shut out by someone with a BIG NAME who couldn't dance for crap in the first place.

Then again. I think....powwow committee's gotta play up to guests and folks from other places....JUST to keep em coming back and talking up their powwow I guess.

...it's a fickle world we live in I guess......then again, I've been told I don't kiss arse enough at powwows, and that's why I don't place.

....then again.......WHO CARES!!!!!!! LMAO!!

I go for the FOOD, the fun of travelling there and home again.....having a good time with people I know, or people I meet.....if I place, I place...if not, I had a great time all weekend.

....but, I do like and encourage the whole point sytem thing. It sorta levels the playing field when the no names like me show up. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

Tiyospaye Yazzie · 07-14-2004, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunacy Knot

Why is it you make ALL the point thingies, spot checks, grand entries, exits.....and you don't see the BIG NAMES out there, yet they win. Even more than that....the BIG NAMES come in late on their contest song.....or even drop items and get in.

Personally, I've seen some good no name dancers get shut out by someone with a BIG NAME who couldn't dance for crap in the first place.

Its who you know and how well you are known that determines the outcome of the contest. I seen Spike Draper mess up during a contest, err, special once and still won and he overstepped big time, a few times. I thought Sky MedicineBear was going to win 'cause he didn't overstepped and was quite active all the way through the contest de speciale. And the the third place winner, little Yazzie guy, was, well, I am just not sure how he got that far dancing the way he was dancing that time, Cory Reider should've taken third.

**kneegrow_native** · 07-14-2004, 08:02 PM

I am not going to say any names, but when I lived in SoCal in the 80's and early 90's, there were some dancers that would show up just for the contest, dance, collect and leave. One pow-wow committee that I know of hated that. They instituted a point system just because of that.

07-14-2004, 03:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,518	Purpose of grand entry points? What is the purpose of taking grand entry points? I've always looked at dance contests as trying to find the best dancers in that category. What does parading into the arena like cattle have to do with being the best? I'd like to see pow wow commitees get away from this practice and just make the contests the contests and leave it at that. Do away with spot checks too...if dancers want to dance intertribals and have fun, that's their perogative. If they don't, they shouldn't have to. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

07-14-2004, 03:24 PM	#2 (permalink)
kamikaze_yazzie ~California Grown~ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NM Posts: 182	I personally like the point system....its like getting something extra for good behavior L. I think without it there would be tons of people coming saturday night 5 minutes before contest and leaving as soon as they were done. And if they did win, it wouldnt be fair to those who were there the whole time participating and enjoying the hard work the commitee puts into the event. Dunno what to say about the cattle part, who ya calling a cow?! lmao* __________________ ~* Im so sin-seriuos ~Impossible is NOT a fact, its an oppinion ... Rumble young girl RUMBLE!~--

07-14-2004, 04:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,518	I made the cattle reference as a jibe towards where the grand entry concept came from - rodeos. i've been pow wowing for a long time now, and I can say that I've only ever seen it happen once where a contestant showed up at the last minute and placed. Come to find out he meant to be there earlier, but in true Indian fashion had car troubles. He was a nice man and a good fancy dancer. Most pow wow people, whether they contest or not, do really love to dance and will still dance in grand entry and most intertribals whether points are being taken or not. Granted, some are only there for the money and won't dance if it won't help them win the moolah, but who cares? In the end run, you're winning out because you truly love to dance. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

07-14-2004, 04:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tiyospaye Yazzie "Ishka N'zin H'aa" Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Tucson, for now... Posts: 443	Real points? What is the point system anyways. Is every powwow going by the same point system? Is their even a standard for points? I don't know, all I came to know is that grand entry points and spot check points are obsolete, I have yet to meet someone that has won on account that they got the points from grand entry or spot checks. You know what would be nice though? It would be nice if they would announce how many points you got, or post the points that you compiled at the end of the powwow, like at rodeos. Why keep 'em such a secret and charge fees to keep people at bay, huh. Does anyone even know the points given to each place? I don't. __________________ "I Ahula Ula" Enjoying the ride. BETA SIGMA EPSILON

07-14-2004, 05:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
kamikaze_yazzie ~California Grown~ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NM Posts: 182	The spot checks and GE points help with ties too. Usually it ends up being the difference between coming in 1st or 2nd.. and id like to think that the person who put in the time and effort gets the edge. As for the points - some powwows do post the points youll get for spotcheck, GE, and judging scores. sometimes it helps sometimes it doesnt. But in the end the judges have the power L... __________________ ~ Im so sin-seriuos ~Impossible is NOT a fact, its an oppinion ... Rumble young girl RUMBLE!~--

07-14-2004, 06:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
nailbreaker4 Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: WA Posts: 21	hahaha!!!:D my lil' bro won third in boy's traditional (with about 6 kids in the category). He got points for all his grand entries and even a grand exit. But the weird thing was that he was a grass dancer. He dance in the jr. grass category but accidently signed up for jr. boys traditional. The other boys must have missed out on grand entry and exit points. That still makes me laugh when I hear it...:D:D:D:D but yeah- I think the point system is alright... but I must stick up for grand entries: they may have originated from the rodeo concept but they have evolved to be so much more. Most importantly getting all the dancers on the floor to see who is all there, then doing an opening prayer and then the flag and victory song. It has a lot meaning to it and is a great way to start out a powwow session.

07-14-2004, 06:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	According to Whome,(another forum) the powwow started as a means to give honor and I agree. It is an honor to win/place at any contest. But we have to work for that honor. Sitting around all day waiting for your contest to come up is not what I would call "good work ethics". Being late is not "good work ethics". A warrior is "always" ready to do battle. If not, it could mean being wounded or even death. I liken the dance warrior to a battle warrior. Training, practicing, being well-equipped. Being ever ready. Getting right into the battle right from the start, hanging in their right to the end. Not, running in after your comrades have tired and you are fresh and well-rested and stealing the glory. That's weak. That's taking the easy way out. You have to work for the honor.

07-14-2004, 08:02 PM	#13 (permalink)
kneegrow_native whip cream is better Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In God's Country Posts: 1,440	I am not going to say any names, but when I lived in SoCal in the 80's and early 90's, there were some dancers that would show up just for the contest, dance, collect and leave. One pow-wow committee that I know of hated that. They instituted a point system just because of that. __________________ It is so sad that a family can torn apart by something as simple as a wild pack of dogs.