Tourism vs. Powwows.

WhoMe · 05-25-2004, 01:16 PM

Many state tourism bureaus are wanting to include Indian powwows in their calendar of events. This would mean non Indian tourists are officially welcomed to attend the listed powwows.

Sometimes this is a win-win situation for the larger "mega powwows." These mega powwows actually encourage non Indians tourism as a way of gaining revenue to pay expenses.

But there is another side to tourism at powwows. . .

It is my firm belief that "Indian powwows are for the enjoyment of it's participants - not tourism." The majority of Indian powwows have predominately all Indian participation. Most are small to medium in size and are community or tribally based. They work on a shoestring budget and have fundraising activities as part of the program.

Let's say that Indian powwows do open themselves to non Indian tourism. What implications would go along with this?
I can see where a new set of standards would have to be addressed.

Among these new standards would be: Handicap accessability, health code restrictions, Insurance, taxes on goods and services to non Indians, permanent seating arrangements for non Indians close to the arena, close access parking for tour busses, and various other hospitality accommodations.

These new standards for tourism accommodation would ultimately change traditional powwows as we know them

What is your take on this?

Coyot_In_The_House · 05-25-2004, 02:27 PM

I'm a Cultural Educator and I always see the plus in people getting "Edjamacated" Although there is a time and place for this....Not necessarily at a Powwow.....As you have stated Powwows vary and yes some Dances do not depend on the "outside" influence to make the proverbial "boat float". I can see people attending a Powwow for a number of different reasons, ayyy. Tourists and people who are not very familiar with particulars can possibly not "fit in" or even be seen as intrusive in some communities.....Granted you probably don't want 4 bus loads of folks showing up at the creek with cameras just a blazing and people poking and prodding.....Normally the Dances based in our communities are just that.... for our community.....Now that's not to say some skins don't want the 4 bus loads to pop up, it varies....
From what i've seen State Tourism Boards will place a Powwow on it's Calander if that particular Tribe or organization requests it. So I guess that's were it makes the difference?

Now if I can I would like to throw my usual curveball here.....It really urks me from time to time when folks comment on this board as well as wherever..... that powwows are not Tradish, or Cultural or on and on......Well I think it's a crock.....Yes we all have our own doings at home and I can certainly respect that, but for the short 20 some odd years I've been singing I can say without hesitation Powwow is indeed a way of Life.....

Good Thread Who Me....It's folks like you who make this place interesting!

Sgi

billytwoponies · 05-25-2004, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House

I'm a Cultural Educator and I always see the plus in people getting "Edjamacated" Although there is a time and place for this....Not necessarily at a Powwow.....As you have stated Powwows vary and yes some Dances do not depend on the "outside" influence to make the proverbial "boat float". I can see people attending a Powwow for a number of different reasons, ayyy. Tourists and people who are not very familiar with particulars can possibly not "fit in" or even be seen as intrusive in some communities.....Granted you probably don't want 4 bus loads of folks showing up at the creek with cameras just a blazing and people poking and prodding.....Normally the Dances based in our communities are just that.... for our community.....Now that's not to say some skins don't want the 4 bus loads to pop up, it varies....
From what i've seen State Tourism Boards will place a Powwow on it's Calander if that particular Tribe or organization requests it. So I guess that's were it makes the difference?

Now if I can I would like to throw my usual curveball here.....It really urks me from time to time when folks comment on this board as well as wherever..... that powwows are not Tradish, or Cultural or on and on......Well I think it's a crock.....Yes we all have our own doings at home and I can certainly respect that, but for the short 20 some odd years I've been singing I can say without hesitation Powwow is indeed a way of Life.....

Good Thread Who Me....It's folks like you who make this place interesting!

Sgi

FIRST YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IF IT WERN'T FOR THE TOURIST,POWWOWS WOULD NOT OR COULD NOT BE WHAT THEY ARE TODAY.THAT IS JUST A SIMPLE FACT AND WAY OF LIFE.UNDERSTAND FIRST THAT WE WOULD NOT EVEN HAVE FANCY FEATHER DANCERS IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE TRAVELING WILD WEST SHOWS.IF IT WERN'T FOR THE HOBBIEST AND BOY SCOUTS POWWOWS WOULD STILL BE HELD IN INDIAN COUNTRY OR REZ'S OR RESERVES.AND NOW WITH THE GREAT EXPENCE TO TRAVEL TO POWWOWS ACROSS THE NATION,WE NEED THE TOURIST TO PAY GATE FEES AND BUY FROM TRADERS SO THEY CAN PAY BOOTH FEES OR FOOD VENDORS THAT FEED EVERYBODY THAT GAS COST ALOT OF $ TO TRAVEL.ASK AROUND ,PUTTING A DANCE TOGETHER TAKES MORE THEN A COUPLE PEOPLE WILLING TO DONATE TIME.IF YOU ARE GOING TO HASKELL THEN YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND BETTER.

Coyot_In_The_House · 05-25-2004, 03:27 PM

1st off....More then likey you intended to "Quote" Who Me, but you Quoted me.....And even had the Audacity....To say

"If I was going to Haskell I should understand"

Gado? What are you saying?

Did you actually read Who Me's post? Clearly he mentioned in sentence 3.......Obviously what flew right over your head? It's also obvious where you Powwow.....Or at least it seems that way.....Although I shouldn't "assume" anything right....?

It dumbfounds me to sit and read some of the things people post here....After something has been initially sprayed across the proverbial wall????

Yes i'll still say it's people like Who Me who make this place interesting and it's folks like "billytwoponies" who need to not JUST LOOK BUT ACTUALLY SEE.............See Oginali SEE!

WhoMe · 05-25-2004, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billytwoponies

FIRST YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IF IT WERN'T FOR THE TOURIST,POWWOWS WOULD NOT OR COULD NOT BE WHAT THEY ARE TODAY. . . . . .UNDERSTAND FIRST THAT WE WOULD NOT EVEN HAVE FANCY FEATHER DANCERS IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE TRAVELING WILD WEST SHOWS. . . . . .IF YOU ARE GOING TO HASKELL THEN YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND BETTER.

___

billy:

You have brought out some interesting points.

If powwows never had contact with tourists: I don't think it would have been a bad thing. I think more traditional tribal
dances would have survived that were closer to their original intent.

Fancy feather dancing originated before the wild west shows. "Competition between early fancy dancers" was born at wild west shows. Not all fancy dancers danced at the wild west shows.

AS for Haskell, I am not going there (as in school right now) . . . The reason I'm a Haskell Rascal is . . .

"I was made there!!!"

ROFLMAO!!!!!
_____

P.S. on BS

I really don't think powwows had a thing to do with the Boy Scouts unless you were involved in that organization.

Coyot_In_The_House · 05-25-2004, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

___

billy:

You have brought out some interesting points.

If powwows never had contact with tourists: I don't think it would have been a bad thing. I think more traditional tribal
dances would have survived that were closer to their original intent.

Fancy feather dancing originated before the wild west shows. "Competition between early fancy dancers" was born at wild west shows. Not all fancy dancers danced at the wild west shows.

AS for Haskell, I am not going there (as in school right now) . . . The reason I'm a Haskell Rascal is . . .

"I was made there!!!"

ROFLMAO!!!!!
_____

P.S. on BS

I really don't think powwows had a thing to do with the Boy Scouts unless you were involved in that organization.

However I notice the humor....

The Haskell line was goot! I'll tell ya never a dull moment.....

Oh! Hey billy keep your pony out of my garden.....

**WocusWoman** · 05-25-2004, 04:58 PM

Oh my gosh, my son was made there too. I didn't know there was a name for him; that's funny! Seriously though, everybody has some good points on this thread. I'm involved with a committee that is putting on a 4th of July powwow here. This is the 3rd annual powwow to date; and we are now non-profit status, so the committee could receive help (money-wise) from the local chamber of commerce and other groups; this also means federal taxes must be paid, etc. etc. Now, this allows the powwow to continue whether or not it's founder is available to put it on. There is now a whole group of people to organize it; who are dedicated and trusted to follow through on the responsibilities they take on. Anyhow; yes the powwow is open to all, but everything is organized so people are advised not to disrespect our gathering. When they are admitted they are handed a leaflet/program that details what goes on during the powwow and what is or is not appropriate in this setting. I grew up in an area with many smaller powwows; alot of the time they go belly up, due to lack of people, lack of funding, or greedy people who have pocketed any or all funds. Personally; I would go to just about any powwow, because I love to dance.

superndngyrl · 05-25-2004, 05:45 PM

I was thinking about this topic awhile back. As a dancer and/or spectator, pow-wows for me are this social gathering where I can meet w/my relatives and friends that I dont get to see since I live away from them.

Its cool going to the pow-wows where there's a large audience consisting of mostly natives. When I'm attending as a non-dancer I still feel like part of the pow-wow.

But when I attend a pow-wow (as a dancer) and the audience consists mainly of non-natives, I feel like a piece of living artwork or something not real... something on display. And as a spectator, there seems to be this line of separation for the dancers and audience that doesn't seem very welcoming.... or maybe thats just me? lol

If you think about it dont you think it contributes to the stereotype of natives -- where real natives only wear feathers and braids? Especially since this would be some tourists only exposure to natives. So are we really educating non-native tourists by their attendance of a pow-wow as one of their many stops on their vacation?

WhoMe · 05-25-2004, 05:45 PM

I actually wanted to work for our state tourism agency in order to promote our state's powwows as well as tribal enterprises.

As I have since learned, whenever an event is opened to the general public, what originally was "grass roots" is suddenly changed to something it wasn't intended to be.

One thing that the Mega powwows need to consider is "a powwow education briefing for tourists or others attending for the first time." In this briefing, what is expected of them and some information on how to appreciate the powwow would be a win-win situation for everyone.

There are too many people who go to powwows who don't know what is going on or how to appreciate the dances and songs. Most announcers are beyond the first time visitor phase and fail to recognize not everyone is on the same page.

What do you think?

**NDNKIDZ** · 05-25-2004, 06:43 PM

Good thread everyone.. :) Super It is not just you..LOL WhoMe do you think people will take the time for a powwow briefing? It is a wonderful thought but I think that folks wont take the time to do this.. :)

powwowbum49 · 05-26-2004, 03:05 AM

Well, I know I have taken friends to their first ever powwow before, and I usually do not dance because I end up spending the entire time they are there explaining that straight song have no words in them and what a vocable is and what this person is wearing and why they are dancing this way for one song and a different way for another. By half way through the dance session I look around and every seat around me is full abd folks I don't even know are by that time asking questions too!

The simple fact is most non natives have absolutely no clue what to expect at a powwow because most wouldn't know who is an NDN even if they kicked them in the shin and though they may think everything is pretty and just too keen, they often offend people because of their lack of knowledge. Often the offended party is none to kind letting them know they did wrong as well...so how many tourist would leave with a bad taste in their mouth about all natives based on the actions of just one?

But when I attend a pow-wow (as a dancer) and the audience consists mainly of non-natives, I feel like a piece of living artwork or something not real... something on display. And as a spectator, there seems to be this line of separation for the dancers and audience that doesn't seem very welcoming.... or maybe thats just me? lol

As NDNKIDZ said...no it is not just you super. Though my question would be...Why is it this way? Is it the participants don't want to have to deal with them? Are the spectators afraid to try and talk to the dancers? I know it can be frustrating having to stand and answer questions for someone you do not know, like you have nothing better to do, but if folks actually did that then maybe that invisible wall would crumble. But then too when you gotta hit the 'O' there is no time to answer questions!

Other things that might affect a tourist encouraging powwow would be, liability issues and insurance for the before mentioned possibilities.

Coyot_In_The_House · 05-26-2004, 10:37 AM

Tourists @ a Powwow will vary....It boils down to that individual....So what i'm saying is.....Some folks will walk away from a Powwow with pretty good intel and some will walk away just as ignorant (if not more so) as they were before.....Kinda hit or miss? I've had some decent down to earth conversations with a wide variety of people at powwows. Oh and i've had a few....."just what the hell was that about" fiascos as well....Anyway I hear where Super is coming from.....Although as a kid I used to get a kick out of cruising ar

05-25-2004, 01:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,495	Tourism vs. Powwows. Many state tourism bureaus are wanting to include Indian powwows in their calendar of events. This would mean non Indian tourists are officially welcomed to attend the listed powwows. Sometimes this is a win-win situation for the larger "mega powwows." These mega powwows actually encourage non Indians tourism as a way of gaining revenue to pay expenses. But there is another side to tourism at powwows. . . It is my firm belief that "Indian powwows are for the enjoyment of it's participants - not tourism." The majority of Indian powwows have predominately all Indian participation. Most are small to medium in size and are community or tribally based. They work on a shoestring budget and have fundraising activities as part of the program. Let's say that Indian powwows do open themselves to non Indian tourism. What implications would go along with this? I can see where a new set of standards would have to be addressed. Among these new standards would be: Handicap accessability, health code restrictions, Insurance, taxes on goods and services to non Indians, permanent seating arrangements for non Indians close to the arena, close access parking for tour busses, and various other hospitality accommodations. These new standards for tourism accommodation would ultimately change traditional powwows as we know them What is your take on this? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

05-25-2004, 02:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
Coyot_In_The_House 1 GEH! Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,914	Hmmmm Good Point.... I'm a Cultural Educator and I always see the plus in people getting "Edjamacated" Although there is a time and place for this....Not necessarily at a Powwow.....As you have stated Powwows vary and yes some Dances do not depend on the "outside" influence to make the proverbial "boat float". I can see people attending a Powwow for a number of different reasons, ayyy. Tourists and people who are not very familiar with particulars can possibly not "fit in" or even be seen as intrusive in some communities.....Granted you probably don't want 4 bus loads of folks showing up at the creek with cameras just a blazing and people poking and prodding.....Normally the Dances based in our communities are just that.... for our community.....Now that's not to say some skins don't want the 4 bus loads to pop up, it varies.... From what i've seen State Tourism Boards will place a Powwow on it's Calander if that particular Tribe or organization requests it. So I guess that's were it makes the difference? Now if I can I would like to throw my usual curveball here.....It really urks me from time to time when folks comment on this board as well as wherever..... that powwows are not Tradish, or Cultural or on and on......Well I think it's a crock.....Yes we all have our own doings at home and I can certainly respect that, but for the short 20 some odd years I've been singing I can say without hesitation Powwow is indeed a way of Life..... Good Thread Who Me....It's folks like you who make this place interesting! Sgi

05-25-2004, 03:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Coyot_In_The_House 1 GEH! Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,914	Perfect case as far as Ejamacating people...PERFECT! 1st off....More then likey you intended to "Quote" Who Me, but you Quoted me.....And even had the Audacity....To say "If I was going to Haskell I should understand" Gado? What are you saying? Did you actually read Who Me's post? Clearly he mentioned in sentence 3.......Obviously what flew right over your head? It's also obvious where you Powwow.....Or at least it seems that way.....Although I shouldn't "assume" anything right....? It dumbfounds me to sit and read some of the things people post here....After something has been initially sprayed across the proverbial wall???? Yes i'll still say it's people like Who Me who make this place interesting and it's folks like "billytwoponies" who need to not JUST LOOK BUT ACTUALLY SEE.............See Oginali SEE!

05-25-2004, 05:45 PM	#8 (permalink)
superndngyrl two little indians Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: in front of the computer Posts: 4,251	I was thinking about this topic awhile back. As a dancer and/or spectator, pow-wows for me are this social gathering where I can meet w/my relatives and friends that I dont get to see since I live away from them. Its cool going to the pow-wows where there's a large audience consisting of mostly natives. When I'm attending as a non-dancer I still feel like part of the pow-wow. But when I attend a pow-wow (as a dancer) and the audience consists mainly of non-natives, I feel like a piece of living artwork or something not real... something on display. And as a spectator, there seems to be this line of separation for the dancers and audience that doesn't seem very welcoming.... or maybe thats just me? lol If you think about it dont you think it contributes to the stereotype of natives -- where real natives only wear feathers and braids? Especially since this would be some tourists only exposure to natives. So are we really educating non-native tourists by their attendance of a pow-wow as one of their many stops on their vacation? __________________ The only time its too late to start dancing is when you're dead.

05-25-2004, 05:45 PM	#9 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,495	I actually wanted to work for our state tourism agency in order to promote our state's powwows as well as tribal enterprises. As I have since learned, whenever an event is opened to the general public, what originally was "grass roots" is suddenly changed to something it wasn't intended to be. One thing that the Mega powwows need to consider is "a powwow education briefing for tourists or others attending for the first time." In this briefing, what is expected of them and some information on how to appreciate the powwow would be a win-win situation for everyone. There are too many people who go to powwows who don't know what is going on or how to appreciate the dances and songs. Most announcers are beyond the first time visitor phase and fail to recognize not everyone is on the same page. What do you think? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

05-25-2004, 04:58 PM	#7 (permalink)
WocusWoman N8tiffUmatillaMAMA Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Interior Alaska Posts: 2,708	Oh my gosh, my son was made there too. I didn't know there was a name for him; that's funny! Seriously though, everybody has some good points on this thread. I'm involved with a committee that is putting on a 4th of July powwow here. This is the 3rd annual powwow to date; and we are now non-profit status, so the committee could receive help (money-wise) from the local chamber of commerce and other groups; this also means federal taxes must be paid, etc. etc. Now, this allows the powwow to continue whether or not it's founder is available to put it on. There is now a whole group of people to organize it; who are dedicated and trusted to follow through on the responsibilities they take on. Anyhow; yes the powwow is open to all, but everything is organized so people are advised not to disrespect our gathering. When they are admitted they are handed a leaflet/program that details what goes on during the powwow and what is or is not appropriate in this setting. I grew up in an area with many smaller powwows; alot of the time they go belly up, due to lack of people, lack of funding, or greedy people who have pocketed any or all funds. Personally; I would go to just about any powwow, because I love to dance.

05-25-2004, 06:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
NDNKIDZ JIMMY HENDRIX ROYALTY Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: OKLAHOMA Posts: 1,146	Good thread everyone.. :) Super It is not just you..LOL WhoMe do you think people will take the time for a powwow briefing? It is a wonderful thought but I think that folks wont take the time to do this.. :) __________________ "I don't mind coming to work, > But that eight hour wait to go home is a BITE."

05-26-2004, 03:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 792	Well, I know I have taken friends to their first ever powwow before, and I usually do not dance because I end up spending the entire time they are there explaining that straight song have no words in them and what a vocable is and what this person is wearing and why they are dancing this way for one song and a different way for another. By half way through the dance session I look around and every seat around me is full abd folks I don't even know are by that time asking questions too! The simple fact is most non natives have absolutely no clue what to expect at a powwow because most wouldn't know who is an NDN even if they kicked them in the shin and though they may think everything is pretty and just too keen, they often offend people because of their lack of knowledge. Often the offended party is none to kind letting them know they did wrong as well...so how many tourist would leave with a bad taste in their mouth about all natives based on the actions of just one? But when I attend a pow-wow (as a dancer) and the audience consists mainly of non-natives, I feel like a piece of living artwork or something not real... something on display. And as a spectator, there seems to be this line of separation for the dancers and audience that doesn't seem very welcoming.... or maybe thats just me? lol As NDNKIDZ said...no it is not just you super. Though my question would be...Why is it this way? Is it the participants don't want to have to deal with them? Are the spectators afraid to try and talk to the dancers? I know it can be frustrating having to stand and answer questions for someone you do not know, like you have nothing better to do, but if folks actually did that then maybe that invisible wall would crumble. But then too when you gotta hit the 'O' there is no time to answer questions! Other things that might affect a tourist encouraging powwow would be, liability issues and insurance for the before mentioned possibilities. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.