HighsNLows

i like your post jacques. i know what youre saying and have heard it many times. ive also heard from other northern plains singers and how they they look at the situation. i think these problems arise from people seeing or hearing drums with a tape or two for sale that have women on the drum. drums that come from these norhtern tribes, or have members from them. they (women, and drums with them "look to these few and say, "oh, they do it this way, it must be ok" they see these examples and think its proper.

i dont like how when the issue arises, those who want to do what is wrong keep pointing to these people as excuses. of course the white way of thinkin "equal rights" gets in the way and people say to *&^^ with tradition, whats right. they dont understand and think that they should be able to do whatever men can do. there is no understanding of each sexes roles in life. i think this comes from US history book type learning. you know the crap that says "indian women did all the work while the men goofed around, and controlled the women". this hogwash is what screws up a lot of peoples thinking. if they were not raised with any tradition they do not know how the roles of men and women work, and think they are being discriminated agaist and, "this is america, ill do what i want to do". people who have women singing on the drum that ive talked to say that "they learned from so and so tribes, and we follow their way" etc, yet clearly they do not follow as they do not have much knowledge as far as the drum goes. it is very sad. i cant help but to wonder why this is seen with the northern drums and not the southern drums. i cant help but think the traditions along the lines of the powwow drums should run the same way, but clearly they do not. why is this? well long enough for one post i guess. i am still curious about my previous post though, any answers are appreciated.

[This message has been edited by HighsNLows (edited March 15, 2001).]

contemptradish

hello.
there's one thing i have trouble understanding sometimes. the whole idea of "tradition" and when it starts. many of you are stating what your tribes and you (personally) feel is the correct, traditional way things should be done and i completely respect that.
it has been said many times here that women traditionally do not sit on the drum and their role in the song is to stand around in a circle behind the men. "tradition."

kahkakew points out that prior to his aunt's starting this "tradition" women did not take part in the song, they did not stand behind the drum to sing. so technically, she was breaking tradition and starting a new one. were people down on her for that? if so, they've seemed to change their minds, b/c this practice is now considered TRADITION.

... some thoughts.

N


[This message has been edited by contemptradish (edited March 16, 2001).]

HighsNLows

contemp, your question is one reason why i am asking for stories on how the powwow drum came to other tribes. ive heard that powwow dancing evolved from omaha's, and related tribes. this why one would think that with the dancing, came this specific big drum that is used for this dancing. if this is the case then one would assume that the ways of these people who introduced this way of singing and dancing should be followed as it was given, and as those that gave it practice.
sure as you say there may be new ways of doing things that may come about, but with some things there are basics. this drum is something powerful, it is not just an instrument something that is struck and just makes noise. there is power there. there are people that look to the drum for healing, and blessings. there are those that say that drum creates life, and those that say the drum keeps the heartbeat of the people going. with something as powerful as this there are instrucions that go along with it. i dont know of anything in the world with power that anyone can do anything they want to do with it. there are things that must be respected. things to do and not do, and women sitting at the drum is one not to do. even if women standing behind the men was a relatively new thing for example, it would not be breaking tradition as the women are not at the drum, which is what is the "tradition" not to do. doing some thing that was not done before is not the same as doing what is not supposed to be done.
i know quite alot of people look to powwows as almost completly social, but things like eagle feathers, and the drum are still very powerful things that have instrutions for the use and care for them. the instructions or "traditions" for them are there for a reason, not just a bunch of made up things to seperate people from each other. maybe this helps your question contemp?

contemptradish

ok HnL, i'm with you. the official issue here, which is women AT the drum, vs. a secondary issue, women taking part in the song. The problem, i suppose, is people mixing the two and not drawing a clear enough line between progression and breaking tradition. apparently 2 separate things.

ok, thanks for the explanation again. and i will be interested in hearing how other tribes say the drum and song was originated and what their tradition really is.

later.

nicky

BPlenty

Jacques is correct in his posting on Lakota traditions. One thing to keep in mind though, is that Lakota singing did not begin with the introduction of the Omaha Wacipi. Prior to that there were various horse songs, Sun Dance songs, grass flattening songs, etc...many of which still exist contrary to popular belief. The wicaglata (literally "those who echo") are the women singer(s) who stand behind the drum. In South Dakota, all of the ones I've seen do it when the mood hits them so to speak, not necessarily on every song. They might do it to help a strugging group, or if a particular family song or old song is being sung...it all depends. Of all of the Lakota drum groups I've seen, only one has had lady singers on the drum and that's Ironwood. Sandra Black Bear-White sings with them on the drum. Why? I don't know, never asked her. She comes from a traditional family from Rosebud so I'm sure there's a reason, but I don't know it. Because of the different medicines involved, I don't care for women singers on the drum, but if its not my drum, what say do I have? Just some thoughts.

HighsNLows

ive heard from people who are adamant against women sitting at the drum mention that there have been acceptions for women who can no longer bear children. no longer having the gift given to women, that it somehow does not conflict with the drum. i dont know much about that particular situatuation so, i steer clear of singing with women regardless of age. maybe any of you heard about this?
i know that the lakota have their way of singing before omaha dancing, most if not all tribes have and had their way of singing, and many with drums, im just wondering how many had the type of drum used in powwows now, with many singers all using that drum. its quite possible that many of the plains tribes used the same style drum and use of it, and the adaptation to powwow style singing was pretty effortless. i dont know though, so im just curious to hear about this.
like i said id also like to hear from others that had no history of this big powwow drum, and powwow style singing, of how it came to their people. and im still wondering why the southern singers do not have this problem of women singing at the drum.

n8tivechick

ok people. this topic was meant for names of female drum groups. not for arguments on tradition. if you will not stop arguing i will close this topic! do not mean any harm by it
-Kelli

__________________
If you lose the drum beat of the creator, you are lost in life - Aanishnabe

You say I don't look indian? Well you don't look stupid, but looks can be deceiving!

saponi

Personally, I do not like to see all females drums. I've been to some pow-wows where they have been drumming and singing. I was always taught that woman do not sit at the drum, handle the drum and stand around the back if singing.

cricket

I just wanted to share with someone. I picked up my 18" hand drum yesterday, its beautiful. They made it so nice for me and put some nice words, dated, numbered and signed the inside of the hoop. I have no beater for it but when I pick it up it talks for itself. I think its a good drum.

I'd like to learn medicine songs and have a nice tape called "Tribal Water" but there are no woman singers on it. Is it something woman are not to sing?

My two girls are very musical, and I have tried to expose them to as much as I can. I have made many different kinds of rattles and small hand drums the ones that you spin in your palms. This is the first really big instrument that I have gotten.

I gather that women are to stand behind the drum and sing with the men at Powwows what of other occasions, and instruments Flutes, rainsticks, rattles etc. are they also for men only, or are there exceptions. It is all still is under the topic Northern Singing.

I am asking in the greatest respect, not out of defience or pride. I, as you know, am at somewhat of a disadvantage. I do have a great interest in picking back up what was lost to my family. I have no sons and wish only to be able to pass down information to my children, who have also been given the gift of music. Mabe someday I'll have a grandson who will need their advise.

Thank you

1dancing white wolf

I have had the pleasure of both meeting and dancing to Mother of Nations drum, and I found them to be respectful and talented women who do not flaunt tradition, but keep it in the best way. These ladies have travelled all over Europe sharing our music and dancing with people who might never be exposed to our culture via any other media than television and movies.
At the pow wows I have attended where they have drummed, I have never seen anyone refuse to dance to their songs, or behave toward them with anything other than great respect.
As for myself personally, I would never presume to sit at any drum, even were I invited to do so. I often sing, standing behind the member of the drum who invited me, but this is how I was raised, and I would be extremely uncomfortable doing anything else.
I have been told many different things about women drumming and singing-some say that it is traditional for women to drum and some say it is not. I know many women who use hand drums to accompany themselves while singing, and who also play the flute.

__________________
Rie