Hand drum contest ballots

**Kiwehnzii** · 06-29-2002, 11:51 AM

I've seen a lot of singing contest ballots but not Hand drum.

What do you singing contest professional judges look for in a hand drum comp?

What would you put on a ballot?

How many singers would be the max? Minumum?

BEZHIG IKWE · 06-30-2002, 08:23 PM

I live in western states and Hand drum contests are usually a single singer event. I've judged a few and have used a 1 to 10 point scale ( 10 being the best ). I look for confidence, singing ability, and knowledge of the song. It's worked ok so far.

**Kiwehnzii** · 07-03-2002, 12:47 AM

Okay, most of the people who would have imput into this topic (singers) are now home from a powwow. I'd like to see what kind of knowledge you dudes have to contribute.

I would have to include precision drumming, singing in sync, showmanship, originality.

Also, any groups would have to sing their own composition in order to compete.

Any more???

**Kiwehnzii** · 07-04-2002, 09:02 PM

What's up with the no replies? Dang! I thought there was some knowledgeable singers around here. Where's the "exposer" and the "wooer" when someone needs them?

How bout you Bigbearstyle? Anything to contribute to this topic? Keeb? Anyone? Even David Schneider, AAYYEE.

Not trying to bother all you pros, but I thought this was a pretty good topic.

young scout · 07-06-2002, 05:37 AM

yeah i'll say sumthin'.......up here in the plains it seems to be that most hand drum contests are four man. It seems like a fair contest cuz everyone's gotta sing strong through out the whole song. Me, i would judge them on their drum beat most importantly. And then their quality of singing and harmonizing. Also the originality of the song is an important aspect. And of course extra points awarded to more than one lead singer.

**Kiwehnzii** · 07-09-2002, 10:53 PM

Yoo hoo!!! Any singers out there? Keeb? Ojibway-tribe? Scarface?
Anybody?

Kiiwedinong · 07-09-2002, 11:16 PM

I've been gone for awhile hitting those pow wow trails. Sorry for not replying. My bad.
Back to your question.........it depends I guess. I mean....Ojibway round dance style and the Cree style are two different hand drum styles.
Cree style; I'd put a lot of emphasis on the drumming. I mean, I've heard from other drummers that drumming to this kinda round dance is difficult. I would look for the precision in the beats and of course the sound of the snare. The snare is probably the most important part of the drumming. Its what makes the beat so distinct then a normal round dance song. I'd also look for style, I enjoy listening to BlackLodge when all the singers hit the rim of the handdrum when it comes to singing the words in their song. Style is important. I'd also consider the harmony, melody, rhythym and overall sound of the song. The leads are also very important. A sweet lead leads into a sweet song. Ummmm....thats it I guess.
Ojibway round dance style is easy to judge I think. Sure the drumming is easy, but you should pay close attention to the checkbeats and the skip beat leading into the other half of the song; these are important parts of the drumming. Once again style would be very important.....one good thing about this style of round dance is that all singers can share the checkbeats at the same time. This is difficult but easy to do once you do it often. Fast beats or slow beats dont matter to me. The song should sound sweet enough to record and dance too. Confidence in both categories is very important too.

Is that good???

**Kiwehnzii** · 07-09-2002, 11:25 PM

Hey, good stuff Ojib-tribe. Miigwetch.

After I get enough input, I'm going to put together a hand-drum contest ballot and post it on here for you all to view. I'd like to get your thoughts on the sample ballot and get some ideas on where to make changes.

Kinda like the ultimate ballot by all you pros.:)

keeb_k · 07-10-2002, 11:55 AM

Good reply Ojib!!! I like no less than 3 singers and also watch to see if they pass the lead or just count on one guy ,shows their versitility, the beat is the key as my Niij says and to see if they jam with their own song, always like a new song!!! Good to see a lot of young bucks in the US getting into the handdrum now. Harmonizing is real big too, nothing like 3or 4 guys sounding like one.

**Kiwehnzii** · 08-06-2002, 11:38 PM

Drumbeat Is the drumbeat synchronized? If there are words, Is the drumbeat sufficiently quietened so the listeners can discern the words?
Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Snare Are all participants in sync with the snare? Can you hear it well?
Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Lead Very distinct? Clear? More than one lead singer?
Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Harmony, synchronization Do they sound as one? Second the lead at exact same time?
Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Personal opinion on song Your own feelings on the song. Does it make you feel good to hear it? Does it make you want to dance? Does the team appear to really be enjoying their song(enthusiasm)?
Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

What do you think round dance judges? Leave it as it is? Add anything? Drop anything? I tried to use some of my own ideas as well as those received here and others I asked. It doesn't look too bad. Feedback PLEASE!

Thanks

**Kiwehnzii** · 08-07-2002, 05:49 PM

This post has been up almost a day without a response. If you don't care for the hand drum contest ballot, just say so. Suggest something. Anything.

I'd really like your feedback because I'll probably pass these around to different powwow committees and maybe some will use them. Maybe you'll be judged according to this criteria. Who knows? Maybe the committees will like it, maybe not.

At least this way, you'll have some say in how you are judged.

HighsNLows · 08-07-2002, 07:19 PM

its pretty good. i like it. the only thing id maybe change is the part of the singers looking like they are enjoying it. i can see everyone now just bouncing around with a goofy smile. i think you can see their enjoyment through their singing, not their appearing to enjoy themselves. the ballot is good though. i and i would definantly keep the examples on it too.

Kiiwedinong · 08-08-2002, 10:37 PM

I like the ballot alot. I can tell its for those Cree round dance songs though. But thats ok. Its kinda unfair for other drum groups who would want to sing those OJibway round dance songs. I mean, with the Ojibway style there is no need for a snare. YOu know what I mean? So its a good ballot but to partial.

**Kiwehnzii** · 08-08-2002, 10:46 PM

Drumbeat Is the drumbeat synchronized? If there are words, is the drumbeat sufficiently quietened enough for you to hear the words? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Lead Is the lead very distinct? Clear? More than 1 person leading? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Harmony/Synchronization Do they sound as one? Do they second the lead at the exact same time? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Personal opinion on the song Your own feelings on the song. Does it make you feel good? Does it make you want to dance? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

All these will be rated from one to seven.

What do you think? Any more thoughts on changes?

Thanks dudes!I've edited this post/ballot. I dropped the snare category and have changed the rating system from 1 to 7. How's it look now , guys?

Kiiwedinong · 08-08-2002, 10:49 PM

too partial

**Kiwehnzii** · 08-08-2002, 10:55 PM

I don't want to have a ballot that takes a half hour to read and end up with 50,000 points.

Ojib tribe, What would you do to change it and not have 45 categories to rate?

06-29-2002, 11:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	Hand drum contest ballots I've seen a lot of singing contest ballots but not Hand drum. What do you singing contest professional judges look for in a hand drum comp? What would you put on a ballot? How many singers would be the max? Minumum?

06-30-2002, 08:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
BEZHIG IKWE Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wild, wild west Posts: 16	Hand drum contest I live in western states and Hand drum contests are usually a single singer event. I've judged a few and have used a 1 to 10 point scale ( 10 being the best ). I look for confidence, singing ability, and knowledge of the song. It's worked ok so far.

07-06-2002, 05:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
young scout Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Turtle Island Posts: 25	yeah i'll say sumthin'.......up here in the plains it seems to be that most hand drum contests are four man. It seems like a fair contest cuz everyone's gotta sing strong through out the whole song. Me, i would judge them on their drum beat most importantly. And then their quality of singing and harmonizing. Also the originality of the song is an important aspect. And of course extra points awarded to more than one lead singer. __________________ Hoka-Hey!!!

07-10-2002, 11:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
keeb_k Junior Dancer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: wisconsin Posts: 138	Good reply Ojib!!! I like no less than 3 singers and also watch to see if they pass the lead or just count on one guy ,shows their versitility, the beat is the key as my Niij says and to see if they jam with their own song, always like a new song!!! Good to see a lot of young bucks in the US getting into the handdrum now. Harmonizing is real big too, nothing like 3or 4 guys sounding like one. __________________ I Was Indian Before Being Indian Was Cool!! There's Plenty Of Room For All God's Creatures. Right Next To The Mashed Potatoes!!

08-06-2002, 11:38 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	Check out this ballot Drumbeat Is the drumbeat synchronized? If there are words, Is the drumbeat sufficiently quietened so the listeners can discern the words? Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Snare Are all participants in sync with the snare? Can you hear it well? Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Lead Very distinct? Clear? More than one lead singer? Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Harmony, synchronization Do they sound as one? Second the lead at exact same time? Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Personal opinion on song Your own feelings on the song. Does it make you feel good to hear it? Does it make you want to dance? Does the team appear to really be enjoying their song(enthusiasm)? Rate from 1 to 10. Please circle - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 What do you think round dance judges? Leave it as it is? Add anything? Drop anything? I tried to use some of my own ideas as well as those received here and others I asked. It doesn't look too bad. Feedback PLEASE! Thanks

07-03-2002, 12:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	Okay, most of the people who would have imput into this topic (singers) are now home from a powwow. I'd like to see what kind of knowledge you dudes have to contribute. I would have to include precision drumming, singing in sync, showmanship, originality. Also, any groups would have to sing their own composition in order to compete. Any more???

07-04-2002, 09:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	What's up with the no replies? Dang! I thought there was some knowledgeable singers around here. Where's the "exposer" and the "wooer" when someone needs them? How bout you Bigbearstyle? Anything to contribute to this topic? Keeb? Anyone? Even David Schneider, AAYYEE. Not trying to bother all you pros, but I thought this was a pretty good topic.

07-09-2002, 10:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	Yoo hoo!!! Any singers out there? Keeb? Ojibway-tribe? Scarface? Anybody?

07-09-2002, 11:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
Kiiwedinong Head Singing Judge Join Date: May 2001 Location: LOTW Posts: 431	I've been gone for awhile hitting those pow wow trails. Sorry for not replying. My bad. Back to your question.........it depends I guess. I mean....Ojibway round dance style and the Cree style are two different hand drum styles. Cree style; I'd put a lot of emphasis on the drumming. I mean, I've heard from other drummers that drumming to this kinda round dance is difficult. I would look for the precision in the beats and of course the sound of the snare. The snare is probably the most important part of the drumming. Its what makes the beat so distinct then a normal round dance song. I'd also look for style, I enjoy listening to BlackLodge when all the singers hit the rim of the handdrum when it comes to singing the words in their song. Style is important. I'd also consider the harmony, melody, rhythym and overall sound of the song. The leads are also very important. A sweet lead leads into a sweet song. Ummmm....thats it I guess. Ojibway round dance style is easy to judge I think. Sure the drumming is easy, but you should pay close attention to the checkbeats and the skip beat leading into the other half of the song; these are important parts of the drumming. Once again style would be very important.....one good thing about this style of round dance is that all singers can share the checkbeats at the same time. This is difficult but easy to do once you do it often. Fast beats or slow beats dont matter to me. The song should sound sweet enough to record and dance too. Confidence in both categories is very important too. Is that good???

07-09-2002, 11:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	Hey, good stuff Ojib-tribe. Miigwetch. After I get enough input, I'm going to put together a hand-drum contest ballot and post it on here for you all to view. I'd like to get your thoughts on the sample ballot and get some ideas on where to make changes. Kinda like the ultimate ballot by all you pros.:)

08-07-2002, 05:49 PM	#11 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	This post has been up almost a day without a response. If you don't care for the hand drum contest ballot, just say so. Suggest something. Anything. I'd really like your feedback because I'll probably pass these around to different powwow committees and maybe some will use them. Maybe you'll be judged according to this criteria. Who knows? Maybe the committees will like it, maybe not. At least this way, you'll have some say in how you are judged.

08-07-2002, 07:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
HighsNLows Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: this way, that way Posts: 56	its pretty good. i like it. the only thing id maybe change is the part of the singers looking like they are enjoying it. i can see everyone now just bouncing around with a goofy smile. i think you can see their enjoyment through their singing, not their appearing to enjoy themselves. the ballot is good though. i and i would definantly keep the examples on it too.

08-08-2002, 10:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
Kiiwedinong Head Singing Judge Join Date: May 2001 Location: LOTW Posts: 431	I like the ballot alot. I can tell its for those Cree round dance songs though. But thats ok. Its kinda unfair for other drum groups who would want to sing those OJibway round dance songs. I mean, with the Ojibway style there is no need for a snare. YOu know what I mean? So its a good ballot but to partial.

08-08-2002, 10:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	This is what I came up with. Drumbeat Is the drumbeat synchronized? If there are words, is the drumbeat sufficiently quietened enough for you to hear the words? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Lead Is the lead very distinct? Clear? More than 1 person leading? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Harmony/Synchronization Do they sound as one? Do they second the lead at the exact same time? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Personal opinion on the song Your own feelings on the song. Does it make you feel good? Does it make you want to dance? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 All these will be rated from one to seven. What do you think? Any more thoughts on changes? Thanks dudes!I've edited this post/ballot. I dropped the snare category and have changed the rating system from 1 to 7. How's it look now , guys? Last edited by Kiwehnzii; 08-09-2002 at 01:19 PM.

08-08-2002, 10:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
Kiiwedinong Head Singing Judge Join Date: May 2001 Location: LOTW Posts: 431	too partial

08-08-2002, 10:55 PM	#16 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,872	I don't want to have a ballot that takes a half hour to read and end up with 50,000 points. Ojib tribe, What would you do to change it and not have 45 categories to rate?

08-08-2002, 11:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
Kiiwedinong Head Singing Judge Join Date: May 2001 Location: LOTW Posts: 431