White gal question - Page 7

nativeproud · 11-20-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyro3256

ok i'll try this again. my troop informed me at our last meating that they want to start an o.a. cerimony / dance team.
i don't want to continue the miss information. i told them we needed to research it some more. before diving in. i found this all to be a suprize as my troop has some o.a. members(not all scouts are) but has not been very active with o.a. events.
ok that sums it up in short.
thakyou for the reply. josiah i am sure others share your feelings. i hope to change that with help.

My question to you is, to put it bluntly, What's the point?

If these scouts arent Native, and arent part of any Native belief system, what's the point in even doing these "cremonies" and dances? Because they think it would be cool? And a "ceremony and dance team"? Like its some kind of sport?

I'm definitely not in any position to be judging people, so know that that's not what i'm trying to do. Not trying to be mean, just wondering.

pyro3256 · 11-22-2008, 12:32 AM

let me start by saying i believe in the boy scouts fundamental values. thats why i vol. with them i have no son in the troop.
that being said there are thing i disaprove of but for the most part can not change. just a nature of the beast.
as far as the point. o.a. was imho was started as a way to inspire boys to be outstanding with in their given troop and council. by way of the fact that a boy only becomes a member of o.a. by being elected by his peirs for recognition of his efforts with in his troop and comunity.
the base theam in o.a. of dressing the part and dancing and cerimonies and all of the native culture part was meant as a tribute to the fact that native americans as a whole enbodied what boy scouts try to teach. love of nature, respect of the outdoors, a positive sence of comunity, and caring for others.
so out of that it spun off to what is is today. the dance "team" is a sport of sorts for them. that was an internal thing not sure when it started or any other detail like judgeign and such. they compete with other troops teams. i have little interest in that part. the cerimonies just so we are clear are not trying to act as some kind of religous thing or something as i imagine it would maybee for you. but are normal bsa functions that would be mc'd by the o.a. instead of a troops leaders. like eagle scout cerimonies and such. which are like a hs graduation cerimony. thats all. but the o.a. "teams" sorry that may be a bad term to use on my part.
would do these cerimonies in full dress regalia however you want to say it. sorry for the long post just want to be clear.
the point is to try to help young boys become positive adults who care about above mentioned values. the o.a. helps support those teaching as mention above. the o.a. is used also as a service oriented group helping other troops and districs with summer camps teaching merit badges whatever. because it members are usally the cream of the crop, so to speak. as i said it's supose to be a tribute to natives as we should strive to have the same values and ideals you have. like josiah pointed out that has falled by the way side, and gone astray. i am a one man army trying to change that but i can not do it with out help. namely without the help and support of the native comunity. i realize to many out there that is like asking a kkk member to donate to the united negro college fund. but i would just like to try. i am very gratfull of the response so far here. it gives me hope that maybee all is not lost. if you are atleast willing to discuss it. for now thats a start. thankyou

**Josiah** · 11-22-2008, 02:20 AM

Ok I will wade in here...

Think of it this way
Back in the 20's during the height of vaudeville days a very popular thing was for white actors to dress up and pantomime blacks. They did not dance very well nor did they sing very well, but to the white audiences that they catered to they were a hit!!! LOL have a white actor dress up like that today!!!

So when these boys dress up in "costume" paint there faces and dance around whooping and hollering
Well its painful to watch

They pick the tribe they are emulating and study them, then put together the things that they read in a book

When they are told that they should not wear those things they get huffy and puffy and just say we are being difficult

When they are told that some of the things they are wearing have a deep meaning to them and should not be worn in that manner again we are told we are just being difficult
Whats the big deal!

How to explain the color blue to a blind person so that they not just understand but actually can see the color blue
So you explain
And explain
and explain
on and on
Thousands of years of culture that by the way does not need to be preserved by boys, We dont need help preserving our culture we are doing just fine thank you very much

Have them reenact 1st contact
Only this time
Dont kill whom you meet
Dont steal from your Host
Dont "convert" them to your Religion
Just let them be

**Joe's Dad** · 11-22-2008, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyro3256

let me start by saying i believe in the boy scouts fundamental values. thats why i vol. with them i have no son in the troop.
that being said there are thing i disaprove of but for the most part can not change. just a nature of the beast.
as far as the point. o.a. was imho was started as a way to inspire boys to be outstanding with in their given troop and council. by way of the fact that a boy only becomes a member of o.a. by being elected by his peirs for recognition of his efforts with in his troop and comunity.
the base theam in o.a. of dressing the part and dancing and cerimonies and all of the native culture part was meant as a tribute to the fact that native americans as a whole enbodied what boy scouts try to teach. love of nature, respect of the outdoors, a positive sence of comunity, and caring for others.
so out of that it spun off to what is is today. the dance "team" is a sport of sorts for them. that was an internal thing not sure when it started or any other detail like judgeign and such. they compete with other troops teams. i have little interest in that part. the cerimonies just so we are clear are not trying to act as some kind of religous thing or something as i imagine it would maybee for you. but are normal bsa functions that would be mc'd by the o.a. instead of a troops leaders. like eagle scout cerimonies and such. which are like a hs graduation cerimony. thats all. but the o.a. "teams" sorry that may be a bad term to use on my part.
would do these cerimonies in full dress regalia however you want to say it. sorry for the long post just want to be clear.
the point is to try to help young boys become positive adults who care about above mentioned values. the o.a. helps support those teaching as mention above. the o.a. is used also as a service oriented group helping other troops and districs with summer camps teaching merit badges whatever. because it members are usally the cream of the crop, so to speak. as i said it's supose to be a tribute to natives as we should strive to have the same values and ideals you have. like josiah pointed out that has falled by the way side, and gone astray. i am a one man army trying to change that but i can not do it with out help. namely without the help and support of the native comunity. i realize to many out there that is like asking a kkk member to donate to the united negro college fund. but i would just like to try. i am very gratfull of the response so far here. it gives me hope that maybee all is not lost. if you are atleast willing to discuss it. for now thats a start. thankyou

I'm not here to argue with you, or even question your spelling. I could read what you wrote. However, I'm not sure if I understood what you wrote.

Are you saying the boy scouts have to go to another race and culture to be taught values that we are taught at home? Don't the parents of these young men have these values in their race and culture?

You mentioned in an earlier post the boy scouts were going to proceed with the o.a. with or without permission to practice these teachings. Is the the type of values they are taught in their homes?

Hope you find what you want.

**Furiously-Fancy** · 11-22-2008, 04:09 AM

If u wanna wear native threadz.......the super dark smoked buckskin is best....

Kaina1128 · 11-22-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe's Dad

Are you saying the boy scouts have to go to another race and culture to be taught values that we are taught at home?

that is EXACTLY what pyro is saying. sad isn't it? they devalue their own cultures AND ours...

New2itall · 11-22-2008, 11:56 PM

Is assimilation complete yet?

pyro3256 · 11-23-2008, 12:28 PM

yes most of the boys come from loving homes with caring parents that do their job as parents . but for as many boys that are in that group their are half as many more that are from broken homes and have a very skewed veiw of life values. NOT trying to steal your race or whatever. just saying you got your game together is all.
its like this. a coworker found out i was a scout leader and he ask abunch ?'s i told him about what i've said here.
he lol ans said "you think your on a episode of leave it to beaver". well sad as it is most of the world these days is jaded beyond beliefe an relies on this on demand world w live in and as a result are impatant and cant hardly do for them selves. so maybee we are hokey and out of touch.
but i for one think the world would be a better place if we all had a little more of a 50's sitcom values.
hope you know what i mean.

Kaina1128 · 11-23-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyro3256

yes most of the boys come from loving homes with caring parents that do their job as parents . but for as many boys that are in that group their are half as many more that are from broken homes and have a very skewed veiw of life values. NOT trying to steal your race or whatever. just saying you got your game together is all.
its like this. a coworker found out i was a scout leader and he ask abunch ?'s i told him about what i've said here.
he lol ans said "you think your on a episode of leave it to beaver". well sad as it is most of the world these days is jaded beyond beliefe an relies on this on demand world w live in and as a result are impatant and cant hardly do for them selves. so maybee we are hokey and out of touch.
but i for one think the world would be a better place if we all had a little more of a 50's sitcom values.
hope you know what i mean.

we know what you mean, but you don't have to *******ize our cultures in the mean-time.

nativeproud · 11-24-2008, 08:04 PM

Exactly.

You can teach children good life values and respect for themselves, others, and nature, without mocking an entire race of people.

New2itall · 11-25-2008, 12:47 PM

he lol ans said "you think your on a episode of leave it to beaver".

So why don't you all dress up as the Cleaver's and re-create the "ideal" of a TV show.

Wakalapi · 11-25-2008, 03:37 PM

Some non-Native people teach their kids "imitation is flattery" and think we just don't get it if we disagree. But in their culture, it is. That's the hitch: they won't truly let go of their culture when they put on ours. If they did, they would only then realize they've strayed where they don't belong and go back.

11-22-2008, 02:20 AM	#123 (permalink)
Josiah PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oklahoma City Oklahoma USA Posts: 4,773 Blog Entries: 4	Ok I will wade in here... Think of it this way Back in the 20's during the height of vaudeville days a very popular thing was for white actors to dress up and pantomime blacks. They did not dance very well nor did they sing very well, but to the white audiences that they catered to they were a hit!!! LOL have a white actor dress up like that today!!! So when these boys dress up in "costume" paint there faces and dance around whooping and hollering Well its painful to watch They pick the tribe they are emulating and study them, then put together the things that they read in a book When they are told that they should not wear those things they get huffy and puffy and just say we are being difficult When they are told that some of the things they are wearing have a deep meaning to them and should not be worn in that manner again we are told we are just being difficult Whats the big deal! How to explain the color blue to a blind person so that they not just understand but actually can see the color blue So you explain And explain and explain on and on Thousands of years of culture that by the way does not need to be preserved by boys, We dont need help preserving our culture we are doing just fine thank you very much Have them reenact 1st contact Only this time Dont kill whom you meet Dont steal from your Host Dont "convert" them to your Religion Just let them be __________________

11-22-2008, 04:09 AM	#125 (permalink)
Furiously-Fancy PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fort Washakie,WY Posts: 3,910	If u wanna wear native threadz.......the super dark smoked buckskin is best.... __________________ "I'd rather be @ a POW-WOW!"

11-22-2008, 11:56 PM	#127 (permalink)
New2itall Halito! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Arkansas Posts: 659	Is assimilation complete yet? __________________ Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got. Janis Joplin

11-24-2008, 08:04 PM	#130 (permalink)
nativeproud Learning Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Oklahoma (wish it were Kansas) Posts: 149	Exactly. You can teach children good life values and respect for themselves, others, and nature, without mocking an entire race of people. __________________ "There is no such thing as 'part Cherokee.' Either you're Cherokee or you're not. It isn't the quantity of Cherokee blood in your veins that is important, but the quality of it...your pride in it. I have seen full-bloods who have virtually no idea of the great legacy entrusted to their care. Yet, I have seen people with as little as 1/500th blood quantum who inspire the spirits of their ancestors because they make being Cherokee a proud part of a their everyday life." -Jim Pell, Principal Chief of the North Alabama Cherokee

11-25-2008, 12:47 PM	#131 (permalink)
New2itall Halito! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Arkansas Posts: 659	he lol ans said "you think your on a episode of leave it to beaver". So why don't you all dress up as the Cleaver's and re-create the "ideal" of a TV show. __________________ Don't compromise yourself. It's all you've got. Janis Joplin

11-22-2008, 12:32 AM	#122 (permalink)
pyro3256 Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 8	let me start by saying i believe in the boy scouts fundamental values. thats why i vol. with them i have no son in the troop. that being said there are thing i disaprove of but for the most part can not change. just a nature of the beast. as far as the point. o.a. was imho was started as a way to inspire boys to be outstanding with in their given troop and council. by way of the fact that a boy only becomes a member of o.a. by being elected by his peirs for recognition of his efforts with in his troop and comunity. the base theam in o.a. of dressing the part and dancing and cerimonies and all of the native culture part was meant as a tribute to the fact that native americans as a whole enbodied what boy scouts try to teach. love of nature, respect of the outdoors, a positive sence of comunity, and caring for others. so out of that it spun off to what is is today. the dance "team" is a sport of sorts for them. that was an internal thing not sure when it started or any other detail like judgeign and such. they compete with other troops teams. i have little interest in that part. the cerimonies just so we are clear are not trying to act as some kind of religous thing or something as i imagine it would maybee for you. but are normal bsa functions that would be mc'd by the o.a. instead of a troops leaders. like eagle scout cerimonies and such. which are like a hs graduation cerimony. thats all. but the o.a. "teams" sorry that may be a bad term to use on my part. would do these cerimonies in full dress regalia however you want to say it. sorry for the long post just want to be clear. the point is to try to help young boys become positive adults who care about above mentioned values. the o.a. helps support those teaching as mention above. the o.a. is used also as a service oriented group helping other troops and districs with summer camps teaching merit badges whatever. because it members are usally the cream of the crop, so to speak. as i said it's supose to be a tribute to natives as we should strive to have the same values and ideals you have. like josiah pointed out that has falled by the way side, and gone astray. i am a one man army trying to change that but i can not do it with out help. namely without the help and support of the native comunity. i realize to many out there that is like asking a kkk member to donate to the united negro college fund. but i would just like to try. i am very gratfull of the response so far here. it gives me hope that maybee all is not lost. if you are atleast willing to discuss it. for now thats a start. thankyou

11-23-2008, 12:28 PM	#128 (permalink)
pyro3256 Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 8	yes most of the boys come from loving homes with caring parents that do their job as parents . but for as many boys that are in that group their are half as many more that are from broken homes and have a very skewed veiw of life values. NOT trying to steal your race or whatever. just saying you got your game together is all. its like this. a coworker found out i was a scout leader and he ask abunch ?'s i told him about what i've said here. he lol ans said "you think your on a episode of leave it to beaver". well sad as it is most of the world these days is jaded beyond beliefe an relies on this on demand world w live in and as a result are impatant and cant hardly do for them selves. so maybee we are hokey and out of touch. but i for one think the world would be a better place if we all had a little more of a 50's sitcom values. hope you know what i mean.

11-25-2008, 03:37 PM	#132 (permalink)
Wakalapi www.wakalapi.com Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: East of the Mountains Posts: 1,283	Some non-Native people teach their kids "imitation is flattery" and think we just don't get it if we disagree. But in their culture, it is. That's the hitch: they won't truly let go of their culture when they put on ours. If they did, they would only then realize they've strayed where they don't belong and go back. __________________ "Friends don't let friends drink decaf..." Relaunched Nov 1, 2008. Completely rebuilt and easier to use than ever.

11-25-2008, 03:49 PM	#133 (permalink)
Wakalapi www.wakalapi.com Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: East of the Mountains Posts: 1,283