Gledanh Zhinga

Yes, no, and maybe.

I was told by Ben Black Elk, Lakota, years ago, that this dance and the original song were made for a special group of wounded warriors. In addition, Terry Fiddler made a point of talking about this at an Albuquerque powwow a few years ago. I think this is good information and it is good to know, but I don't think it is going to change anyone's way of interpreting the dance, especially when the sneakup travels to other tribes and is used by everyone after grand entry.

As I recall, the old Lakota way was to sing three pushups, and on the fourth, the dance was "released".

RedShield

We normally sing a Smokeytown Sneak-up whose words go (translated) Hurry up, Dance, Hurry up, Dance, Hurry up, Hurry Up Dance, Dance, Dance Warriors Dance. In the language from what I have been told there is a distinct difference between Ogitchida, and Ogitchidakwe (please don't take any offense for my spelling, I'm not sure of the exact spelling and am doing my best phoneticly... maybe hooked on phonics don't work for me... LOL) But the particular word we use means male warriors, not female warriors... In this case it wouldn't be appropriate for women to dance the song as a true snaek-up... maybe stationary on the outside, but not in the arena actually doing the sneak-up. I know things vary from place to place, and we all have our own ways of doing things...
Here, we do the sneak-up as a specialty dance, not as normal song with it's own place in line after grand entry, and it is always used as a men's traditional only. But that's here, have never seen what you speak of...
All I am doing is sharing how we do things here, but "when in rome..." things can change.
Just my 49 cents worth...

Paselo

__________________
I became a singer because I love to sing... and to feed my addiction to cough drops!

TKMJ Productions

I guess it's OK for me to agree and disagree at the same time in this case. Out west at some powwows I have attended, the sneak-up is used at grand entry. At others out west it is not. In the east, I have never seen a sneak-up used in grand entry. I think it's a regional thing.

Now lets look at the sneak-up as a warriors dance. By tradition it appears as a mens dance. That I can agree with. However, all must agree that some women are warriors as well. Now the subject is going to get a bit touchy. Do female warriors who have done their time in the milatary have the right to dance this dance? Some of those women have seen combat just like men. Should we now open a catagory for those females as a women's warrior sneak-up? I do not think it would be right to mix together the men and women on the sneak-up in the circle. Our people are moving with the times.

The words of the song say it all. "Dance Warriors Dance". Times have changed and our powwows are opened to the public.

Red, I used your quote because it came up as a perfect example. It shows no gender. Because we have taken each other as brothers, we will not fight on this one. However the subject is healthy discussion for the camp fire.

Ken

RedShield

true enough... but if they had intended warrior women they would have used or included the term ogitchidakwe literally "Warrior women."

But I do agree, there are now women taking fire on the front lines, and plenty have women are now and have served in the military... maybe things will change one day, and may have already changed in some places, I have no problem with vet dances, they have earned that right... sneak-ups?... I dunno.
Sometimes I wonder how much farther our traditions will bend before they break to the point that our elders won't recognize them anymore. Just makes me think...

But, we can respectfully agree to disagree... it's cool. You know I won't beat ya up... lol. Brothers should always be able to talk and resolve issues peacefully... and we have always been that way, so why stop now.

Paselo

__________________
I became a singer because I love to sing... and to feed my addiction to cough drops!

tsuj510

Allright! Another Oakland Native in tha House!

Fruitvale District, represent! Where you at LW?

tsuj510

I second that Singerdad and Kakeeya.

I was raised that Women stand to the side out of respect. Sometimes the Women dance and the Men sit; sometimes the Man dance and the Women sit and sometimes we dance together. What's the confusion?

If I am a visitor, I know I'd better good and well listen even if that is not the way I was taught, I'm the "newbie" and I gotta respect what I am being told. I can take it with some salt, if need be, but I'm damn sure gonna listen or maybe get my ears boxed by an angry grandma! :)

Lakota Wiyan

Thank for saying this SingerDad!! People NEED to learn the words to these songs...they are very important, and they can teach you alot. I think alot of people go to powwows and forget that aspect of it. Our songs and dances are meant to convey a feeling, or commemorate an event, or honor a person or thing. If you don't know what the drums are singing about, you might as well sit down and think about it!

Going to powwows for 25 years now, I always remember the Sneak Up during the Grand Entry times. This was done at this time because we have sung the flag song, danced the victory dance, and now move into the sneak-up....it's all in honor of the warriors, or the veterans nowadays. We women stay out there because in someway or another, we all have relatives who are warriors. We stand still and sing, which is what I was taught to do. On the down beats, we wave a handkerchief, a hand or a fan. We still have little Uncis who come out and dance on the outter edge with the rest of us, with their pretty little shawls, and honor their warriors.

The way the men in our family were taught, waaaay back, the sneak up is danced with three advances, and at each break (during the shake part) the men move back again from the middle, but during the song, they move toward the middle all over again. On the last break, the fourth push up, they "attack" the center, touch it ( coup) and dance away. It's so cool to see all the men huddled in the middle, and it makes me cry when I see my little son dancing in honor of his Dad, his Uncles and his Grandpa and Great-Grandpa. This is a man's dance, but you better believe that we women get as much pride and glory out of it as you men!!

Whatever you learned, try to remember that every dance isn't meant to merely earn you points. If you don't know something, this is a good time to ask someone and learn. And if you visit other tribes/regions, for their powwows, don't judge them because they might do things a little differently than you and your tribe. When we do things with a good heart, we do it right...but we also don't want to offend.

TKMJ Productions

Well that goes to show you. Leave it to a Lakota woman to show us the beauty of the sneak-up Your words describe the dance in such a wonderful way. Thankyou!

Native 1

I just have to add that since the sneak up is really a warrior's dance..you don't go back..you are acting out how you are sneaking up on the enemy...with your weaponry...and at the end of the fourth pushup you count coup on the enemy (which is exemplifying bravery) no..I disagree that women who served in the military would be allowed to participate in that dance. The lakota version of the sneak up anyway...there are just some traditions that will not bend for even that...there's just a fine line when it comes to gender we don't mix things up just like that...its part of the reason why men dance counterclockwise and women go the other way..its respecting one another but also to recognize that men have their roles in society..whether that was long ago or today..there are certain things that females can and can't do..its just always been that way..as far as other tribes doing the sneak up ?? it probably became generalized because most of the other sneak up versions only have the 3 push ups.

TKMJ Productions

Native 1,

Your point is well spoken. Do you have any ideas on how we can honor the female vets other then the veterains dance in the grand entry? Some kind of special dance? I know a few women who have actually seen combat in Vietnam. One was assigned to hunt for her fallen brothers, identify them and bring them back to base. A true warrior in my heart and mind.

Ken