why can't..... - Page 3

**ojibwaysweetie** · 10-18-2003, 11:54 PM

Traditions are not meant to be changed. Traditions are Creator-given ways to our people.
What "changes" are our people's ways of thinking.

**Smeshigaud** · 10-21-2003, 12:43 PM

I agree with Sweetie, I was taught that a woman does not sit at a drum or sing on a drum. When I was in college in NM our NAC was trying to start a drum. They had some natives girls on there and I didn't say anything. I went to a practice one night and someone tried to get me to drum and I told them that i couldn't, cuz that's not our way. They respected it but probably cuz it was all native LOL. They sang at our college pow-wow. They were starting out but they tried the best they could. I just couldn't help them out.

WolfTears · 10-21-2003, 02:31 PM

Now before I even type a word I am not being sarcastic !
Women around the drum should be those married to the men druming . If we keep changing things to please those tryin to snag then what are we saying about our drum? Can we please keep some things the way they are ment to be ?
I was at a pow wow this year where a woman drum was there. Now no disrespect umm ladies?? We couldnt even catch a beat for our happy little feet to step to . An most dancers tried to honor them being there it just didnt work .
An I am not saying that just because my family drum was there as host drum . They just didnt bring it .. They had one man on the drum with them bare chested hillbilly style hat an all the women were bare foot ,lookin like construction workers . Now come on if you are going to pow wow an want to be respected as a drum team present it , bring it , deliver what mother drum is asking not what you want from her .
An again it never happend .
I am all for family keeping family at the drum (ie wife mother daughter sister ) do it with respect . Just my 2! yeah yeah I know I can feel it coming . Ducks her head an waits.

Tom Iron Eagle · 10-22-2003, 03:39 PM

OutSnaggin already mentioned that it depends on where one is from.

There are some All Women Drums - the Mankillers for instance.

And there are some places where women play hand drums - saw that once years ago in the Sub-Artic.

But in general it was mentioned that Women are too powerful because they carry the heartbeat of the people.

old bull · 10-30-2003, 04:05 PM

I AM A DRUMMER AND I WAS TAUGHT THE OLD WAYS HOW TO TAKE CARE OF GRANDFATHER DRUM AND HOW OUR BACKUP SINGERS ARE VERY IMPORTANT AS FOR MY PERSONAL EXPERIANCE HERE IN THE SOUTHEAST I SAW ONE WOMAN DRUM TEAM AT A POW WOW NONE OF THE OTHER DRUMS WOULD SET UP AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE NONE OF US HAVE BEEN BACK TO THIS POW WOW THIS IS NOT HOW WE WERE TAUGHT AND I REMEMBER ALL OF OUR ELDERS TEACHINGS

10-31-2003, 10:09 AM

i totally agree with what everybudy sayin...that women are too powerful to be on a drum...i honestly dont think women should be on a drum and sometimes change is good and sometimes it just aint...ive seen alotta mixed drums...now im not saying that there not good ...which i have heard alotta great mixed drums but its just not our way of keeping tradition... btw the mankillers are pretty awsome..mixing genders on a drum the problem with that is their imbalancing powers and that aint good....everyone on here had great answers to related topic question...becca

**Dancin by the bay** · 10-31-2003, 12:58 PM

This is some down educational tools for me to remember. I've been to PowWow but didn't realize just how much protocol is involved and I helped out Cal's PowWow but more of the setup.

11-15-2003, 01:20 PM

yay theres tons of protocol when it comes to powwows...well its because if nto there would be havac...it keeps our ways alive and makes sure things are done the right way...i mean we have reason why we do thing cuz its our way-becca

WICAPI WANJI · 11-17-2003, 01:48 PM

If this is offensive to anyone GET OVER IT!! AYE!! any ways Im kinda in the middle here....bieng that Im from Cali and South Dakota....there are alot of Women drums out there especially in the Redding CA area O.K. fine Waste...but you keep that s**t there dont bring it up to South Dakota, North Dakota or basically the Plains area or YOU WILL be escorted off the rez like what happened to a particular Cali Womens Drum group at the Rosebud Fair dont get me wrong cuz I personally dig their Music and know some of the members...but you just have to understand!! whats right is right PERIOD!! Ill quote something real quick....In the original belief system men and Women played their RESPECTIVE ROLES. Women sang BEHIND the men singers,...We as traditionals do not believe that women have the right to do things in a backwards motion or act as contraries( i.e heyokas of the Lakota) It is said when UNBALANCE is presented in the circle REPRECUSSIONS WILL DEVELOP this is why we must honor the original philosophies handed down by the originators who also said the Grass dance will acculturate throughout Indian Country!!....:Mad .......Dokca

**tradish_wiyan** · 11-17-2003, 06:30 PM

Right on Wicapi Wanji. :D

cougarwalker · 12-02-2003, 07:06 PM

this is what i was told by an elder about the drum.
the women made the drum and gifted it to the men. the men were from then on to take care of the drum. cant remember exactly why this all came about but from then on it has been tradition.he also said that the reason we see more women drums and more mixed drums is because men failed to honor and take care of the drum so the women are taking it back along with its power. now i dont believe women who are on their moon time should sit on a mixed drum cuz that wouldnt be right. but if its an all womens drum and she asks permission from the other members and everyone agrees thats different. so thats my 2 cents worth.

WolfTears · 12-03-2003, 12:43 AM

Yep Yep Yep .. now this is only my 2 cents so hold your dollar till I am done lol ...Keep what our elders lived close to your heart . Do not change what has worked for hundreds of years . Hows that for 2 cents ?

robby · 12-14-2003, 02:08 AM

I don't think there is one southern drum with women singers sitting at the drum hitting the drum leading songs. If there is I don't think it is a legitimate southern drum.

Fyreseer · 06-04-2004, 08:46 PM

Thank you, Historian, for the information you set out there. So many of you feel strongly about having/ not having women at the drum, for different reasons. Yes, there are reasons for traditions, and these traditions developed over a long time. However, I must respectfully disagree with many of you that women should not be at the drum. There have been many things that men can do, that women are not allowed to do, for various traditional reasons.

But not everyone fits the mold. Even such a long-lived one. There are those out there offended by the idea of women being fighters, and taking on "men's roles". But the way we are today, this is happening more and more often. I think we should teach why things were, but perhaps develop different stances on what should and should not be taken with us on our journey.

Cougarwalker also had an interesting bit of information, and I thank for sharing that as well.

A lot of you are from families where your had access to elders and people who believed in following the traditions. Not everyone is so fortunate, and have to learn things the hard way. Sometimes there is no one available to tell people that something is not acceptable. And so, when the vitriol is flung in their face, they rebel... because no one bothers to explain why something is. Or they don't know, themselves... they just say "because it is tradition". Traditions are meant to keep societies operating smoothly, not to confine people in ruts, and I doubt that there has been no change in traditions over the past three hundred years. Information changes minutely with the beliefs and memories of those who hold it.

So maybe I'm stupid for not knowing, not agreeing, or whatever. I have to start somewhere, and so does the person who asked the question in the first place...

10-18-2003, 11:54 PM	#41 (permalink)
ojibwaysweetie PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Heart of the Great Lakes, Ontario Canada Posts: 5,029	Traditions are not meant to be changed. Traditions are Creator-given ways to our people. What "changes" are our people's ways of thinking. __________________ "Gaa wiin daa-aangoshkigaazo ahaw enaabiyaan gaa-inaabid"

10-21-2003, 12:43 PM	#42 (permalink)
Smeshigaud PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,170	I agree with Sweetie, I was taught that a woman does not sit at a drum or sing on a drum. When I was in college in NM our NAC was trying to start a drum. They had some natives girls on there and I didn't say anything. I went to a practice one night and someone tried to get me to drum and I told them that i couldn't, cuz that's not our way. They respected it but probably cuz it was all native LOL. They sang at our college pow-wow. They were starting out but they tried the best they could. I just couldn't help them out. __________________ He's the type of rez I like ~A. Waquie Nov. 2003~

10-21-2003, 02:31 PM	#43 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	Now before I even type a word I am not being sarcastic ! Women around the drum should be those married to the men druming . If we keep changing things to please those tryin to snag then what are we saying about our drum? Can we please keep some things the way they are ment to be ? I was at a pow wow this year where a woman drum was there. Now no disrespect umm ladies?? We couldnt even catch a beat for our happy little feet to step to . An most dancers tried to honor them being there it just didnt work . An I am not saying that just because my family drum was there as host drum . They just didnt bring it .. They had one man on the drum with them bare chested hillbilly style hat an all the women were bare foot ,lookin like construction workers . Now come on if you are going to pow wow an want to be respected as a drum team present it , bring it , deliver what mother drum is asking not what you want from her . An again it never happend . I am all for family keeping family at the drum (ie wife mother daughter sister ) do it with respect . Just my 2! yeah yeah I know I can feel it coming . Ducks her head an waits. __________________ Better known an loved as Men~Nie Turtles ! Life is what you make it. Becareful what you give . You just might get it back!

10-22-2003, 03:39 PM	#44 (permalink)
Tom Iron Eagle Teen Dancer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 370	Different Ways OutSnaggin already mentioned that it depends on where one is from. There are some All Women Drums - the Mankillers for instance. And there are some places where women play hand drums - saw that once years ago in the Sub-Artic. But in general it was mentioned that Women are too powerful because they carry the heartbeat of the people.

10-30-2003, 04:05 PM	#45 (permalink)
old bull Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: ala. Posts: 83	I AM A DRUMMER AND I WAS TAUGHT THE OLD WAYS HOW TO TAKE CARE OF GRANDFATHER DRUM AND HOW OUR BACKUP SINGERS ARE VERY IMPORTANT AS FOR MY PERSONAL EXPERIANCE HERE IN THE SOUTHEAST I SAW ONE WOMAN DRUM TEAM AT A POW WOW NONE OF THE OTHER DRUMS WOULD SET UP AND TO MY KNOWLEDGE NONE OF US HAVE BEEN BACK TO THIS POW WOW THIS IS NOT HOW WE WERE TAUGHT AND I REMEMBER ALL OF OUR ELDERS TEACHINGS __________________ long hair

10-31-2003, 10:09 AM	#46 (permalink)
hidatsawmn26 Guest Posts: n/a	i totally agree with what everybudy sayin...that women are too powerful to be on a drum...i honestly dont think women should be on a drum and sometimes change is good and sometimes it just aint...ive seen alotta mixed drums...now im not saying that there not good ...which i have heard alotta great mixed drums but its just not our way of keeping tradition... btw the mankillers are pretty awsome..mixing genders on a drum the problem with that is their imbalancing powers and that aint good....everyone on here had great answers to related topic question...becca

10-31-2003, 12:58 PM	#47 (permalink)
Dancin by the bay Graceless Grass Dancer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: city by the bayCALI Posts: 1,108	This is some down educational tools for me to remember. I've been to PowWow but didn't realize just how much protocol is involved and I helped out Cal's PowWow but more of the setup.

11-15-2003, 01:20 PM	#48 (permalink)
hidatsawmn26 Guest Posts: n/a	yay theres tons of protocol when it comes to powwows...well its because if nto there would be havac...it keeps our ways alive and makes sure things are done the right way...i mean we have reason why we do thing cuz its our way-becca

11-17-2003, 01:48 PM	#49 (permalink)
WICAPI WANJI Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: SANTA BARBARA CA Posts: 52	If this is offensive to anyone GET OVER IT!! AYE!! any ways Im kinda in the middle here....bieng that Im from Cali and South Dakota....there are alot of Women drums out there especially in the Redding CA area O.K. fine Waste...but you keep that s**t there dont bring it up to South Dakota, North Dakota or basically the Plains area or YOU WILL be escorted off the rez like what happened to a particular Cali Womens Drum group at the Rosebud Fair dont get me wrong cuz I personally dig their Music and know some of the members...but you just have to understand!! whats right is right PERIOD!! Ill quote something real quick....In the original belief system men and Women played their RESPECTIVE ROLES. Women sang BEHIND the men singers,...We as traditionals do not believe that women have the right to do things in a backwards motion or act as contraries( i.e heyokas of the Lakota) It is said when UNBALANCE is presented in the circle REPRECUSSIONS WILL DEVELOP this is why we must honor the original philosophies handed down by the originators who also said the Grass dance will acculturate throughout Indian Country!!....:Mad .......Dokca __________________ SANTA BARBARA SKIN

11-17-2003, 06:30 PM	#50 (permalink)
tradish_wiyan plains n8tv Join Date: May 2003 Location: northern plains Posts: 1,093	Right on Wicapi Wanji. :D __________________ yeah, yeah, yeah... ...never underestimate the power of stupid people in groups... If quizzes are "quizical"...What are tests?

12-02-2003, 07:06 PM	#51 (permalink)
cougarwalker Junior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 141	this is what i was told by an elder about the drum. the women made the drum and gifted it to the men. the men were from then on to take care of the drum. cant remember exactly why this all came about but from then on it has been tradition.he also said that the reason we see more women drums and more mixed drums is because men failed to honor and take care of the drum so the women are taking it back along with its power. now i dont believe women who are on their moon time should sit on a mixed drum cuz that wouldnt be right. but if its an all womens drum and she asks permission from the other members and everyone agrees thats different. so thats my 2 cents worth.

12-03-2003, 12:43 AM	#52 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	Yep Yep Yep .. now this is only my 2 cents so hold your dollar till I am done lol ...Keep what our elders lived close to your heart . Do not change what has worked for hundreds of years . Hows that for 2 cents ? __________________ Better known an loved as Men~Nie Turtles ! Life is what you make it. Becareful what you give . You just might get it back!

12-14-2003, 02:08 AM	#53 (permalink)
robby fancy feather dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: powwow trail Posts: 88	women I don't think there is one southern drum with women singers sitting at the drum hitting the drum leading songs. If there is I don't think it is a legitimate southern drum.

06-04-2004, 08:46 PM	#54 (permalink)
Fyreseer Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: N. AL Posts: 9	2 sense? Thank you, Historian, for the information you set out there. So many of you feel strongly about having/ not having women at the drum, for different reasons. Yes, there are reasons for traditions, and these traditions developed over a long time. However, I must respectfully disagree with many of you that women should not be at the drum. There have been many things that men can do, that women are not allowed to do, for various traditional reasons. But not everyone fits the mold. Even such a long-lived one. There are those out there offended by the idea of women being fighters, and taking on "men's roles". But the way we are today, this is happening more and more often. I think we should teach why things were, but perhaps develop different stances on what should and should not be taken with us on our journey. Cougarwalker also had an interesting bit of information, and I thank for sharing that as well. A lot of you are from families where your had access to elders and people who believed in following the traditions. Not everyone is so fortunate, and have to learn things the hard way. Sometimes there is no one available to tell people that something is not acceptable. And so, when the vitriol is flung in their face, they rebel... because no one bothers to explain why something is. Or they don't know, themselves... they just say "because it is tradition". Traditions are meant to keep societies operating smoothly, not to confine people in ruts, and I doubt that there has been no change in traditions over the past three hundred years. Information changes minutely with the beliefs and memories of those who hold it. So maybe I'm stupid for not knowing, not agreeing, or whatever. I have to start somewhere, and so does the person who asked the question in the first place...

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode