sun dance questions/feelings - Page 4

eagleshield01 · 07-09-2003, 09:13 PM

Good for him, I'm also a decorated vet and sundancer. :p I just wanted to know who was badmouthing my family. Maybe you don't think defending your family is important. I will right or wrong.
But I believe a washicu has come very close to dividing us by his ignorant inquiry into our sacred ceremonies, which is something we've been dealing with for a long time.
Perhaps we can stop this useless tit for tat and who shot John crap and come together in a constructive manner and discuss just what the hell is happening to our holy people and what we can do to change things. Tantanka Iyotanka once said"Let us come together in a good way and see what we can build for our children". I think we need to stop critizing each other. How's that for starters? I'm all for making relatives not enemies, especially amoungst my own people. Anyone care to join me?

nc silent quiver · 07-10-2003, 02:42 AM

Quote:

"hi..was this topic assigned to you? i really wouldnt suggest to write about it....why not go into a different direction such as:

Well said. :) :D :)

eagleshield01 · 07-10-2003, 09:28 AM

Singerdad:
I hear you bro. You make good points. If you notice your own reply refers to the Oglala Lakota Nation as just that, the proper way: Oglala Lakota, not Oglala Sioux. Its cultural indentity. Yes there are some who don't mind refering themselves as Sioux, and there are some who do. The Winnebago's changed their name from a corrupted white man's term to their traditional name;Ho-Chunks. Why? We should call ourselves by our tradional name. When our people fought for their survival they were dieing to ensure the Lakota, Nakota, and Dakota name lived on. It may seem unimportant. The Ho-Chunks thought differently.
Your right, we should concern ourselves with our own commitments and reasons for Sun Dancing. Nobody on this thread made any issue of that. The issue is washicu intrusion into our ways of life. Remember what happened to the old ones who were shut in the rez's after Wounded Knee and how the washicu made a concentrated attack on our ceremonies and customs by outlawing them and storming into homes to take and destroy our cunnunpa's and bundles. Remember how we had to conduct Wiwangyang wacipi in hiding out in Maka SIca away from prying eyes, while they were free to pray how they wished, at the same time forcing their religion down our throats. Now that we have been given freedom to conduct them in the open without fear, the washicu comes in again. Always taking over. God gave them Jesus and the White Buffalo Calf women gave us the pipe and the Sun Dance. ANd thats the way it should stay. Oh, by the way, we are not Tribes but Nations.

LWB · 07-10-2003, 01:02 PM

Hello everyone
Hope no one minds me putting my 2 cents in.

About 11 years ago i was asked to go to Sun Dance with my addopted. bro-He had danced for 2 years , was a full blood member of the C.R.S.T. & an AIM member from way back & as my bro asked me to go with him back home & support him in his vow
but before we went he gave me some news papers ( then the Lakota Times) & there happend to be a letter in one of them from Arvol ,he was asking then (1992) for white people & NDNs of other nations to stop comming to these dances & to turn in their pipes, Well after reading that letter i went back & told my bro that after reading it i felt that i should'nt go with him that it would prob. be better if i prayed & supported him from home , that even though i am NDN (1/6 Cherokee & some Osage) i am not Lakota
& didnt want there to be any bad feelings becouse i was there.
needless to say my bro was hurt & dissapointed , but we talked about it for a long time & things turned out alright .

i would like to ask, did i do the right thing . i think i did for the Lakota nation, but how bout my bro ,i have still always felt like i let him down , i mean bros should be ther for each other esp. for the important things in life.

Thanks for listening ...............lwb

PS my bro & Arvol were cousins ,both des. from Elk Head

eagleshield01 · 07-10-2003, 07:08 PM

As for as i'm concerned you did. Yu don't have to be at the dance itself in order to lend support. Just praying for him was supporting him in his vow. You did good. I wish more non ndn and non lakota would show the same respect.:indian2: :

**spottedeagle** · 07-10-2003, 08:24 PM

I know when to keep my mouth shut and eyes and ears open. And I have been doing so while reading this thread. But today while looking for information on an Indiana Powwow, I came across something that caught my attention. I know it's already over, but I thought the information should be brought to this thread. Perhaps something can be done about it.

July 5 - 12
12th Annual Salt Creek Sundance - Freetown, Indiana

Sponsored by Stephen and Gwen McCullough

here is the link to their Webpage

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/hoosier/recr...e_ceremony.htm

I don't really feel it my place to get involved with this I don't know enough about, but somethings like this just can not go unnoticed.

eagleclan22 · 07-11-2003, 12:23 AM

I have never seen such a big group of cheap n passive ndns in my life. You know if your ancestors read some of the stuff that is posted here they would be turning in their graves.

The First Nations people never put boundaries on who participated in their ceremonies. The people were about sharing, I can understand peoples cautiousness when it comes to sharing with non-native people, I am also. BUT when it comes to nation to nation sharing within the native community, no one ever really owned anything. Creator has given the First Nations people ceremonies to help eachother survive. I can see all this damn euro-influence on the cheapness of how people have become here in this thread. People act as if they own these ceremonies, they are not owned by one person or one nation, everything was given to share. To help every First Nation group on this land survive. I cant stand it when Native people turn their backs on others when they need help, THat is not NDN. I dont know where the heck all of these rules came from, its just plain stupid.

If none of our nations have shared anything, where would we all be? Nothing is static about our ways, everything changes and everything always has.... since the beginning.

Get off your high horses people, these ceremonies are merely instruments for our people to be who we have always been.

GOOD UN-CHEAP PEOPLE. :Angel2

PS> Not tryna get mad, just tryna make a point. :Chatter :Chatter

PPS. I bet you anything Im gonna get bashed for this post.

07-11-2003, 03:12 AM

Sure there are boundaries as there is proper protocol in the ceremonies. If the Creator wanted everyone to particpate in certain ceremonies he would have given the ceremonies to all nations. And sure certain things do change via vision or other - a message from the creator, not from those who seek glorification or want to be a self proclaimed medicine man. Be proud of your own tribal heritage. Don't shun what the creator gave to YOUR people. And yes our elders have to safe guard these traditons as they are gatekeepers to our culture.:)

eagleshield01 · 07-11-2003, 09:16 AM

:JawDrop
Ok eagleclan, I've read your ignorant b.s. four times and i still can't make any sense out of it.
Cheap NDN's? How so? Ancestors rolling over in their graves?

I think yours would be if they could read your post. Yes, everyone knows that ndn's welcomed the washicu with open arms and shared what we had with those pitiful people. And look what it got us!
There are things that belong to us, given to us by the creator and the white buffalo calf woman so that OUR nations would prosper and grow. Keyword here is OURS, eagleclan. Sure, there are somethings that should be shared, but ndn's did the giving(sharing) and washicu did the taking. And they keep on taking. DId you know there is a sundance on state land in IN. conducted by washicu? Yeah, i checked it out last night and after an hour finally tracked them down. But according to you, its just fine and dandy to let them do that. I think you missed the point some of us are trying to make.
The Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota nations gathered together to put an end to this desecration a short time ago. They agreed, no more washicus at Sundances and any washicu who was made hunka(adopted) by our nations were to return their cunnunpa(sacred pipes) to the people. Passive? I think not. But the washicu will only take it off the rez and do what they are doing in Indiana.
We act like we OWN these ceremonies. Damn right! They were given to us by Tunkasila. If Jesus had wanted the washicu to Sun Dance and carry pipes, he would have given it to them!
As far as me turning my back on any ndn needing my help? Thats B.S. I was taught by my elders that we are here for a reason, to help each other, especially those less fortunate. But there are some people who can't be helped and some who should not be helped. I don't plan on helping washicu help themselves to the last of what we have. Sounds like you will; sell out.
Yeah nothing stays the same. Things change. Thats true. But to what end? You sound as those yu have no problem with washicu's helping themselves to anything thats ours. Thats played out and wont be allowed anymore.
Get off our high horses. The only one high here is you. I suggest You get on your high horse and try to save something that belongs to your people. You're trying to make a point? You made it alright!

eagleclan · 07-11-2003, 02:07 PM

My, what an ego. I don't think that you have a right to speak for our ancestors or our Creator. You don't know what was set out for us here on Turtle Island. Your teachings definitely clash with ours, maybe it's the Euro influence? Where are you from? From where I come from, I was taught that it isn't nice to disrespect others. Maybe you've heard of the seven teachings? You sound like you hate all races and tribes other than your own. Well, we've been taught differently. I've been taught never to turn anyone away in need of healing. There are too many people in real need of that healing to be turning into an exclusive club. THAT is the Euro way. Maybe you should consult your elders before you come in here ranting and raving that your nation and ways are the ONLY way. You don't know about all sundance keepers visions and dreams. You don't know what good comes out of those ceremonies. If you did know, you woudn't have so much hatred in your heart. I don't care what type of things you do in your life, it's none of my business, just like it should be none of your business what other people do. ALL people are entitled to pray in their own way. So what if they choose this way to pray! It is a good way. Do you think that Creator looks at the color of their skin, or what nation their from and says "nope, I'm not going to listen"???? You have no right to say that. As for Creator giving each nation their ceremonies, do you think he did this to cause conflict among us? I don't think so. Creator loves all of us, this is what I was taught. I am a sundancer and I don't drink or do drugs. I pray for my family and my community, and I pray for people like you who have anger in their hearts.

Wakalapi · 07-11-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

i would like to ask, did i do the right thing

LWB - Only you can answer that. You followed your conscience. Who on this board, or on this earth, can fault you for that?

**Kakeeya** · 07-11-2003, 05:19 PM

This topic is about Sundances and I believe that there are too many people arguing about something that is so sacred. I don't believe our Creator wants this from his children. Our Creator gave each one of his children's nations gifts in which to communicate to him by. Within these gifts there are so many ways and beliefs all different but in many ways similar. He gave some of his children the sacred pipe, the sacred medicine of peyote, the sacred gift of Longhouses, the Waashat, etc. Too many ways to name but each one of these ways is powerful and sacred and held in the utmost reverence and respect. Also with each gift came teachings and we were shown how the Creator wants us to pray and communicate to him through prayer and songs. And yes there are also rules that need to be followed.
I ask humbly for the arguing to stop and for all of us to step back and see how we are hurting each other with these words.
I don't think Arvol would like all the arguing about the sacred Canupa. As the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, he has a great responsibility and does have the authority to ask that the Lakaota ceremonies be conducted in a proper manner, the way it was shown to their people from the beginning. Peace

eagleclan22 · 07-11-2003, 06:04 PM

Good boy Eaglesheild, looks like you sorta got what i was talkin about. For your information I was not refering to sharing the ceremonies with non native people. Jeez dont get your shorts in a knot Im just voicing my opinion.

I agree with you too Kakeya

eagleclan22 · 07-11-2003, 06:05 PM

Sorry my post was so short I havent had much time to respond or clearly read anything, This OJIBWAY is on her way out to the SUNDANCE

07-10-2003, 01:02 PM	#64 (permalink)
LWB Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: thorn in your side Posts: 29	Hello everyone Hope no one minds me putting my 2 cents in. About 11 years ago i was asked to go to Sun Dance with my addopted. bro-He had danced for 2 years , was a full blood member of the C.R.S.T. & an AIM member from way back & as my bro asked me to go with him back home & support him in his vow but before we went he gave me some news papers ( then the Lakota Times) & there happend to be a letter in one of them from Arvol ,he was asking then (1992) for white people & NDNs of other nations to stop comming to these dances & to turn in their pipes, Well after reading that letter i went back & told my bro that after reading it i felt that i should'nt go with him that it would prob. be better if i prayed & supported him from home , that even though i am NDN (1/6 Cherokee & some Osage) i am not Lakota & didnt want there to be any bad feelings becouse i was there. needless to say my bro was hurt & dissapointed , but we talked about it for a long time & things turned out alright . i would like to ask, did i do the right thing . i think i did for the Lakota nation, but how bout my bro ,i have still always felt like i let him down , i mean bros should be ther for each other esp. for the important things in life. Thanks for listening ...............lwb PS my bro & Arvol were cousins ,both des. from Elk Head Last edited by LWB; 07-10-2003 at 01:08 PM.

07-10-2003, 08:24 PM	#66 (permalink)
spottedeagle FANMAKR Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Soaring over you Posts: 4,516	I know when to keep my mouth shut and eyes and ears open. And I have been doing so while reading this thread. But today while looking for information on an Indiana Powwow, I came across something that caught my attention. I know it's already over, but I thought the information should be brought to this thread. Perhaps something can be done about it. July 5 - 12 12th Annual Salt Creek Sundance - Freetown, Indiana Sponsored by Stephen and Gwen McCullough here is the link to their Webpage http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/hoosier/recr...e_ceremony.htm I don't really feel it my place to get involved with this I don't know enough about, but somethings like this just can not go unnoticed. __________________ The things you are doing today are the traditions of twenty-five years from now. -Daryl Baldwin: Miami

07-11-2003, 12:23 AM	#67 (permalink)
eagleclan22 Breath Inspector Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sagkeeng First Nation Posts: 317	I have never seen such a big group of cheap n passive ndns in my life. You know if your ancestors read some of the stuff that is posted here they would be turning in their graves. The First Nations people never put boundaries on who participated in their ceremonies. The people were about sharing, I can understand peoples cautiousness when it comes to sharing with non-native people, I am also. BUT when it comes to nation to nation sharing within the native community, no one ever really owned anything. Creator has given the First Nations people ceremonies to help eachother survive. I can see all this damn euro-influence on the cheapness of how people have become here in this thread. People act as if they own these ceremonies, they are not owned by one person or one nation, everything was given to share. To help every First Nation group on this land survive. I cant stand it when Native people turn their backs on others when they need help, THat is not NDN. I dont know where the heck all of these rules came from, its just plain stupid. If none of our nations have shared anything, where would we all be? Nothing is static about our ways, everything changes and everything always has.... since the beginning. Get off your high horses people, these ceremonies are merely instruments for our people to be who we have always been. GOOD UN-CHEAP PEOPLE. :Angel2 PS> Not tryna get mad, just tryna make a point. :Chatter :Chatter PPS. I bet you anything Im gonna get bashed for this post. __________________ NO MY EYES REALLY DONT LOOK LIKE THAT........ THATS ME AS A BRATZ DOLL ;) http://pages.ivillage.com/sagkeengpowwow2003/ Some guys are good with their drum sticks.... and some just arent...:karate:

07-11-2003, 05:19 PM	#72 (permalink)
Kakeeya PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: By a mountain on the Rez Posts: 2,560	Enough is enough This topic is about Sundances and I believe that there are too many people arguing about something that is so sacred. I don't believe our Creator wants this from his children. Our Creator gave each one of his children's nations gifts in which to communicate to him by. Within these gifts there are so many ways and beliefs all different but in many ways similar. He gave some of his children the sacred pipe, the sacred medicine of peyote, the sacred gift of Longhouses, the Waashat, etc. Too many ways to name but each one of these ways is powerful and sacred and held in the utmost reverence and respect. Also with each gift came teachings and we were shown how the Creator wants us to pray and communicate to him through prayer and songs. And yes there are also rules that need to be followed. I ask humbly for the arguing to stop and for all of us to step back and see how we are hurting each other with these words. I don't think Arvol would like all the arguing about the sacred Canupa. As the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, he has a great responsibility and does have the authority to ask that the Lakaota ceremonies be conducted in a proper manner, the way it was shown to their people from the beginning. Peace

07-11-2003, 06:04 PM	#73 (permalink)
eagleclan22 Breath Inspector Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sagkeeng First Nation Posts: 317	Good boy Eaglesheild, looks like you sorta got what i was talkin about. For your information I was not refering to sharing the ceremonies with non native people. Jeez dont get your shorts in a knot Im just voicing my opinion. I agree with you too Kakeya __________________ NO MY EYES REALLY DONT LOOK LIKE THAT........ THATS ME AS A BRATZ DOLL ;) http://pages.ivillage.com/sagkeengpowwow2003/ Some guys are good with their drum sticks.... and some just arent...:karate:

07-09-2003, 09:13 PM	#61 (permalink)
eagleshield01 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: GREENVILLE, SC Posts: 70	Good for him, I'm also a decorated vet and sundancer. :p I just wanted to know who was badmouthing my family. Maybe you don't think defending your family is important. I will right or wrong. But I believe a washicu has come very close to dividing us by his ignorant inquiry into our sacred ceremonies, which is something we've been dealing with for a long time. Perhaps we can stop this useless tit for tat and who shot John crap and come together in a constructive manner and discuss just what the hell is happening to our holy people and what we can do to change things. Tantanka Iyotanka once said"Let us come together in a good way and see what we can build for our children". I think we need to stop critizing each other. How's that for starters? I'm all for making relatives not enemies, especially amoungst my own people. Anyone care to join me?

07-10-2003, 09:28 AM	#63 (permalink)
eagleshield01 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: GREENVILLE, SC Posts: 70	Singerdad: I hear you bro. You make good points. If you notice your own reply refers to the Oglala Lakota Nation as just that, the proper way: Oglala Lakota, not Oglala Sioux. Its cultural indentity. Yes there are some who don't mind refering themselves as Sioux, and there are some who do. The Winnebago's changed their name from a corrupted white man's term to their traditional name;Ho-Chunks. Why? We should call ourselves by our tradional name. When our people fought for their survival they were dieing to ensure the Lakota, Nakota, and Dakota name lived on. It may seem unimportant. The Ho-Chunks thought differently. Your right, we should concern ourselves with our own commitments and reasons for Sun Dancing. Nobody on this thread made any issue of that. The issue is washicu intrusion into our ways of life. Remember what happened to the old ones who were shut in the rez's after Wounded Knee and how the washicu made a concentrated attack on our ceremonies and customs by outlawing them and storming into homes to take and destroy our cunnunpa's and bundles. Remember how we had to conduct Wiwangyang wacipi in hiding out in Maka SIca away from prying eyes, while they were free to pray how they wished, at the same time forcing their religion down our throats. Now that we have been given freedom to conduct them in the open without fear, the washicu comes in again. Always taking over. God gave them Jesus and the White Buffalo Calf women gave us the pipe and the Sun Dance. ANd thats the way it should stay. Oh, by the way, we are not Tribes but Nations.

07-10-2003, 07:08 PM	#65 (permalink)
eagleshield01 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: GREENVILLE, SC Posts: 70	As for as i'm concerned you did. Yu don't have to be at the dance itself in order to lend support. Just praying for him was supporting him in his vow. You did good. I wish more non ndn and non lakota would show the same respect.:indian2: :

07-11-2003, 03:12 AM	#68 (permalink)
SNAGgles Guest Posts: n/a	Sure there are boundaries as there is proper protocol in the ceremonies. If the Creator wanted everyone to particpate in certain ceremonies he would have given the ceremonies to all nations. And sure certain things do change via vision or other - a message from the creator, not from those who seek glorification or want to be a self proclaimed medicine man. Be proud of your own tribal heritage. Don't shun what the creator gave to YOUR people. And yes our elders have to safe guard these traditons as they are gatekeepers to our culture.:)

07-11-2003, 09:16 AM	#69 (permalink)
eagleshield01 Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: GREENVILLE, SC Posts: 70	:JawDrop Ok eagleclan, I've read your ignorant b.s. four times and i still can't make any sense out of it. Cheap NDN's? How so? Ancestors rolling over in their graves? I think yours would be if they could read your post. Yes, everyone knows that ndn's welcomed the washicu with open arms and shared what we had with those pitiful people. And look what it got us! There are things that belong to us, given to us by the creator and the white buffalo calf woman so that OUR nations would prosper and grow. Keyword here is OURS, eagleclan. Sure, there are somethings that should be shared, but ndn's did the giving(sharing) and washicu did the taking. And they keep on taking. DId you know there is a sundance on state land in IN. conducted by washicu? Yeah, i checked it out last night and after an hour finally tracked them down. But according to you, its just fine and dandy to let them do that. I think you missed the point some of us are trying to make. The Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota nations gathered together to put an end to this desecration a short time ago. They agreed, no more washicus at Sundances and any washicu who was made hunka(adopted) by our nations were to return their cunnunpa(sacred pipes) to the people. Passive? I think not. But the washicu will only take it off the rez and do what they are doing in Indiana. We act like we OWN these ceremonies. Damn right! They were given to us by Tunkasila. If Jesus had wanted the washicu to Sun Dance and carry pipes, he would have given it to them! As far as me turning my back on any ndn needing my help? Thats B.S. I was taught by my elders that we are here for a reason, to help each other, especially those less fortunate. But there are some people who can't be helped and some who should not be helped. I don't plan on helping washicu help themselves to the last of what we have. Sounds like you will; sell out. Yeah nothing stays the same. Things change. Thats true. But to what end? You sound as those yu have no problem with washicu's helping themselves to anything thats ours. Thats played out and wont be allowed anymore. Get off our high horses. The only one high here is you. I suggest You get on your high horse and try to save something that belongs to your people. You're trying to make a point? You made it alright!

07-11-2003, 02:07 PM	#70 (permalink)
eagleclan Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 31	My, what an ego. I don't think that you have a right to speak for our ancestors or our Creator. You don't know what was set out for us here on Turtle Island. Your teachings definitely clash with ours, maybe it's the Euro influence? Where are you from? From where I come from, I was taught that it isn't nice to disrespect others. Maybe you've heard of the seven teachings? You sound like you hate all races and tribes other than your own. Well, we've been taught differently. I've been taught never to turn anyone away in need of healing. There are too many people in real need of that healing to be turning into an exclusive club. THAT is the Euro way. Maybe you should consult your elders before you come in here ranting and raving that your nation and ways are the ONLY way. You don't know about all sundance keepers visions and dreams. You don't know what good comes out of those ceremonies. If you did know, you woudn't have so much hatred in your heart. I don't care what type of things you do in your life, it's none of my business, just like it should be none of your business what other people do. ALL people are entitled to pray in their own way. So what if they choose this way to pray! It is a good way. Do you think that Creator looks at the color of their skin, or what nation their from and says "nope, I'm not going to listen"???? You have no right to say that. As for Creator giving each nation their ceremonies, do you think he did this to cause conflict among us? I don't think so. Creator loves all of us, this is what I was taught. I am a sundancer and I don't drink or do drugs. I pray for my family and my community, and I pray for people like you who have anger in their hearts.

07-11-2003, 06:05 PM	#74 (permalink)
eagleclan22 Breath Inspector Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sagkeeng First Nation Posts: 317	Sorry my post was so short I havent had much time to respond or clearly read anything, This OJIBWAY is on her way out to the SUNDANCE __________________ NO MY EYES REALLY DONT LOOK LIKE THAT........ THATS ME AS A BRATZ DOLL ;) http://pages.ivillage.com/sagkeengpowwow2003/ Some guys are good with their drum sticks.... and some just arent...:karate: