PKing

I wanted to know about roach lengths, other headresses, and fans or staffs used by the Iroquois for tradishional dance regalia. If any one has any comments or advice it would be greatly appreciated.

storm

Do you mean traditional Iroquois dancing( like fish dance ), or Iroquios dancing traditional powow style? Two very different things.

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PKing

traditional Iroquois regalia for powwow dancing

post182eastern-trad

well i was always told with any outfit .. to start from the bottem up..

1)moccs-centerseem can have some light bead work...
2)leggings.. buckskin w/o fringe(in woodlands then wouldnt want things to get caught on trees and bush's so no fringe.. OR.. cloth center seem leggings
3)garters-used to hold up leggings and they are good to show length
4)bells- i like to use deer toes but u can also use hawk bells i wouldnt use sheep bells (i have both hawk bells and deer toes on mine
5)aprons-buckskin again no fringe OR cloth aprons possably some light bead work or some light ribbon work
6)shirt-early drop sleeve shirts are nice.. i dont use ribbons.. stick to solid colers.. whites greens reds blues.. if u are goin to use a desing make them like small flowers (calico)
7)assumption sash-natives traded for these with the fench.. its kinda like a belt.. (most of the time the gaters and the sash werent matching because native got what they could... some times diff colers or styles
8)arm bands-metal about 2 1/2 wide.. brass copper or silver all work OR you can use wampum<-- didnt spell right ? and make arm bands from that
9)choker-bone OR wampum
10)cloth bags.. made from canvas with a blanket strip on them you can decorate them with brooches.. or pins bead work bottens
11)powder horn
12)i carry 2 hawks and criss cross them at the back of my assumption sash.. i think it looks nice so thats why i do that but u dont have to..
13) a patch knife (looks nice around the neck.. or tucked in to ur belt *always with a seath*)
14)mini roach-these looks really nice and are what eastern woodlands native wore.. with a nice bone or turtel shlell spreader and a nice beaded turkey feather they look really good
15)gehustiwhei <---- spelt wrong-its a feather hat... they would use turkey goose feathers and split them and sew them on to the frame itself or closth covering the frame.. also had uprights to show what part of the nation they were...
16)goose or turkey wing fan- very simple and looks great when dancing
17)dance stick-can be beaded with a skull at the top mine has a badger skull at the front with brick stich beading and fur on it.. but u can also use war clubs deer foot dance sticks whip sticks..ect

i hope this helps...

-mike

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PKing

how long is the roach usually? I read something about a tear drop shape being commonly used? how long are these? Are bustles uesd? a reply will be greatly appreciated ..... thanks

storm

Well I really can't help. I know little except what our Seneca neighbors have shown me. Yes we have Seneca band here in OK.
I am a long way from NY but I know this... nothing should have an animal skull on it...nothing! We call it road kill on a stick.. find ONE example in a photo or museum and I will eat my sombrero.
Study these(your, I hope) people. There are photos on line, museums, go visit them. Visit the people. watch. It is fine to get advice on the net, but dancing is a big deal to some of us, to some of us it is how we pray...take the time and have the respect to study a year or so.
Roach spreaders are Elk antler, or german silver, sometimes bone, anything else is funky. (turtle shell?)
You know powow dancing among these people is a relativly new thing. No goose or duck feathers...way to funky. Turkey is an old tradition up there. Also a turkey beard roach, but may be hard to come by.
Don't just take my advice..Check it out a while... be wary of some of what you are told.. like at least hear it from two people first...you will see.
Good luck

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My bark is worse than my bite

PKing

I have been dancing for about two years,but just starting to make larger items (i.e. breastplate). I know some things, but lengths on some specific items are unknown to me. Turtles are a common item and symbol on regalia for Mohawks, is something known to me (my wife has grown up in the circle and she helps to explain and introduce me to people that help). Yet, again others don't always know the specifics either. I am deeply grateful for the help I have been receiving here and hope that others will respond to help me.

storm

It is good you have been dancing a while.
A small northern roach would only be 6 to 8 inches in total length. These are modelled after turkey beard roaches that were most common in the east but are hard to come by now. Do you know any turkey hunters it take 4-8 good beards to make a roach.
Turtle symbols for totems is great..but the material used to make a spreader is fairly unifrom. You will not need much of a spreader in a small roach. Also do not flatten out the hair with the spreader. Leather, maybe with a turtle symbol, can work.
I spent about 30 minutes doing research last night and found dozens of examples at various museum site...and powow shots so there is informaion out there. Try Peabody museum, and the Nat. museum of the American Indian.
Sorry about the rant on skulls. When I am arena director or whipman down here, I do not let folk into the arena with dead skunks on thier heads or skulls on sticks. It is considered offensive to so uninformed.
Many will tell you to dress like your tribe. Since your folks did not dane this way you seem to be adapting a Iroquois look ( totems and symbols) to northern tradish dancing. This is a good approach.

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post182eastern-trad

ok well... 1 off.. wit the dance stick and the heads.. why is that bad.. im not talkin about a full head im talkin about a skull.. and iv seen alot of people wit that here i ny.. alsoduck and goose feathers and very common as is turkey.. but goose,duck ,grouse.. um phesant are all good..

the roaches yes are tear drops.. that is also mini roaches they are great usaly about 5-6 inchs

for the bustles... u can make one BUT!!!!! they have to be turkey feathers.. and NO i repeat NO extenders the quill is at large as it goes... u can use turkey or goose. duck might be small

for the spreaders.. u can use turtel shell i have it among alot of other people i have seen with it.. it looks really good.. also.. i would use bone or shell or even a thick leather peice instead of german silver for a tear drop... but thats me..

any other questions or comments..?


also.. lose the breat plate.... eastern dancers done use breast plates

-mike

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storm

I agree with much of what "post182...: said. I have myself never seen a turtle shell spreader.
As far as mixing goose and duck feathers..this is a no no.
If you are Indian you need to use Eagle feathers. On your head and in your bustles.
If not, then I understand you have to make subtitutes. But not just any ol thing. Do not mix "water" feathers with others.
pm if you want to know why. What if I wore a false face mask to one of your dances and acted like a fool?
I am not trying to be ugly or contrary. If you read this board enough you will see a lot of frustrated Natives ragging about road kill and funky clothes and silly looking dancers. I am just trying to help avoid this. For a long time I just got mad and ran folks off.. I decided to try and help.We have a few Cherokee and other Southern and Eastern tribes who have succesfully adapted their traditional mans clothes to dance clothes without looking like a reject form a 50's western.

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post182eastern-trad

well eastern natives do mix goose and tukey and duck... hence the gehustewhie...
can be any or all of thoses feather combinend i wouldnt suggest to mix them in a bustle.. but i would still use only turky or goose for the bustel..
ur sayin only egale... egale for the bustle egale for the head items as well..

here the thing many eastern natives hold the turkey feather at the same hight of respect as the egale... here in the northeast.. well i dont kno if u knew this but egales arent really living here.. so if some 1 got afather the must have goten it out of trade.... in the east the turkey is plentifull.. and was seen at a very high respect..
norther plaines used egale feathers for bustles.. nother eastern natives use the turkey or even goose for that matter..

-mike

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storm

Ok, thanks I learned something about NE. I looked up that hat...
But what kind of songs are you dancing to? Northern plains?Where did this dance come from? Northern plains and Oklahoma.

And my Mom is a Turkey clan member my freind...So I know about its use, as I said earlier That would be a good choice, thus the Turkey beard roach. We agree completly on that.
That porky is from the Northern plains too.

What bustle did the Iroquios wear before powow came in?
And Eagles did live there once..check out your calumets... You can apply for Feathers from the Fed. Govt. if you are an Indian.

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post182eastern-trad

yes u can but heres the thing
with ne dancing its not based on fancyness..
if u look at most outfits its kinda just what they wouldwear as work cloths..

norther trad has like an outfit they would use for powwow or a gathering..

the eastern tribes would just used what they had silver work they could trade for and stuff like that it wasnt fancy stuff so they wouldnt really apply for eagle feathers and they were very rare in the ne
im not an expert but im just sayin very rare so the turkey was used for feather instead of egale..

-mike

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hi............
bye...........

storm

Thank you.
I understand what you are saying..
You and PKing might go online to the Peabody museum at harvard. There are 250 Iroguois items, moccasins, a fine pair of buckskin leggings, garters, wampum belts, knife cases and pouches. Google Peabody museum at Harvard...In the search Type in "Iroquois" you can spend an hour there looking at good photos of old stuff..
I think, and It may be just me, if you are powow dancing, dress for that.. if you are Iroqouis dancing..dress for that.
You make a great point about work clothes...I straight dance..It is just a little extra added to regular indian clothes. Beads, necklaces, otter drop, etc. Leggings and aprons etc. are everyday clothes. However good beaded Iroquios leggings and aprons were really fancy in my opinion...Womens dresses with all that silver work are some of the most beautiful there were.

__________________
My bark is worse than my bite

PKing