Women in Regalia

PhoenixFire · 01-07-2004, 04:26 PM

I have a small question that has caused much debate over several forums online and I wanted to pose the question to you. I do not wish to offend, but have no other way of asking this question, so I’ll be blunt:

Are women allowed to wear the dance regalia consisting of but not limited to:
Bustle
Roach
Etc.

If the answer is no, why not?

I don’t like to ruffle feathers, but I have been getting conflicting answers from everyone. Some say yes. Others say yes but only for educational purposes, as in displaying for a class… And the more common answer is, “How dare you even think of such a thing!” basically no. Again I do not wish to offend anyone by asking this question, but I'd like to know.... Thank you all for your time....

Respectfully,
PhoenixFire

PhoenixFire · 01-07-2004, 05:52 PM

Earlier i posted this message so i thought that i'd give an update... I just spent all day looking up info... talkin to people in chat rooms and they all tell me more power to me! What do you think

**spottedeagle** · 01-07-2004, 06:47 PM

Women have worn men's regalia in the past. Examples of this are before women had fancy shawl, there were several that danced in men's fancy dance. I have also heard of women dancing the grass dance. Although I have never seen a woman dance anything other than in the women's style of dances. Another exception would be switch dance, where both sexes swap outfits. Most women I know are happy dancing their own style of dances and the tradtions involved in those dances.

sookout sh'nob · 01-07-2004, 06:54 PM

Echo that Spotted Eagle. Also, I'd like to add the following thoughts (and no it's not a warning).

Sure, a woman can wear a bustle and roach if she wants too, but she should probably be ready to live up to the standards of the local warrior societies at the drop of a hat. A lot of people where I'm from would be live and let live about it (although I know a couple that might pitch a fit). Also, where I am from, a man doesn't generally dance without a vision - even if it is a spiritual gift passed down within the family or from another warrior, there is still an originating vision that guided the man in bringing this sacred item to life in the physical world. There is a Thunderbird in each sacred eagle feather- and if it's not an eagle feather, there are warrior requirements for crows, ravens, hawks, owls, and turkeys as well. People will talk and that woman will be tested - but then again, proving you are brave is what being a warrior is all about. If you wanted to hedge your bets (and save some wear and tear on your hide), you could request permission from your community or elders. If you have neither, I suggest travelling with friends for support because it will be rough (swapping gender roles ALWAYS is).

Of course, if you are a veteren, it's all moot and you can wear whatever warrior items you want too-You've already learned the right.

PhoenixFire · 01-07-2004, 09:14 PM

You all have been very helpfull! I've learned that it all depends on who will be at the Powwow... It is so weired that you said the thing about "warrior" That was going to be my next question...
I understand the signifigance between the dance and the warrior... My next question is, being white and a woman, I have looked long and hard for a tolerant elder willing to take on a student ((In fact I have had no replys to any of my letters)) I am white and a woman who feels the warrior spirit burning inside of her and knows not were to turn...Any suggestions((sorry if I've rambled))~PhoenixFire

powwowbum49 · 01-07-2004, 11:35 PM

Try turning to the Army. There are several conflicts going on right now that I am sure could use someone with a warrior spirit burning inside of her.

PhoenixFire · 01-08-2004, 01:14 AM

I couldn't pass the physical requirements... I'm too outtashape.... Like round LOL

WolfTears · 01-08-2004, 05:04 AM

Is not even gonna get started on this one .. I will just say what I always say be who you were born !

Heinz57 · 01-08-2004, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixFire
I have looked long and hard for a tolerant elder willing to take on a student ((In fact I have had no replys to any of my letters))

Well maybe there's your answer....If the elders aren't tolerant of your intentions don't you think it would be disrespectful to continue your quest...Oh hell if your white be white whats so bad about it?

WolfTears · 01-08-2004, 07:41 AM

Ok here it is .. There are some things that should be left as they were ment to be . The men have their regalia an the women have theirs an that is as it should be . The problem with today is everyone is trying to mix it up make it what it was not suppose to be hence we have so much that is not right with mother earth now . Take it back the way it was , dont try an bring to it what it was never ment to be .
Let our heritage speak for itself . Be who you are . WE cant change who we were born an I for one dont want to . If you want to dance then do it in the proper way .
I am not going to rip you a new one but I for one would not take kindly to seeing a woman in a mans regalia just because they feel a warrior in there heart . I am a former Marine I earned my feathers . An I would never AN I mean never dress in a manner that was not ment for me . So you are round ... Find a style of dance that fits who you are an dance with respect .
That is the problem today we have so many ppl doing things they have no idea what its meaning is . Learn understand that the creator sent us to the families we were ment to spend time with learn that culture an if you are lucky enough to share some of ours so be it .
Becareful where you tred some wont take it so kindly .
The elders have good reason why they do not answer . Take that with a ton of salt .
Ok its time for me to go to sleep before I really say something rude.:devil

**White Powwow Dancer** · 01-08-2004, 02:54 PM

Women in Regalia

PhoenixFire · 01-08-2004, 03:49 PM

Okay... first... I had decided after my second post on this thread to dance in women regaliaif I even am deemed worthy to learn!...
I have noone in my area to talk to... I live in an intolerant white town and have no mode of transportation, e-mail and forum discussions seemed a logical choice. This is an exerpt from an e-mail, that touched me deeply regarding dance:

"I know what you mean by the drum making you want to dance. That is the way it should be. The drum beat is representative of the heartbeat of Mother Earth and moves us all... There are many beautiful ways you can reflect your feelings in your regalia and dance... The Creator made women with much more strength than we men. You do not have to prove you are a worior like we do. For this reason, you can dance proud that you are strong and beautiful, just the way the Creator made you."

I like to be respectful of customs and traditions... I do not wish to offend through my ignorance, however, how am I to learn,know, & grow if I don't ask? I do not like to be chastised by some ((not all here are)) for asking a question that i knew not the answer to. I again would like to offer my original intent of not wanting to offend, I'm deeply sorry if I have...

Humbly,
Phoenix

**White Powwow Dancer** · 01-09-2004, 12:47 AM

Hi
PhoenixFire
To be warrior go into firefighting too.

KoolNDN · 01-09-2004, 12:57 AM

You should be yourself, not someone your not.

You are a white woman - if the creator wanted you to wear a roach, bustle and etc... he would have made you an ndn man.

I would say go to powwows, enjoy the music, participate in an intertribal or round dance but leave it that. I myself admire and respect many cultures - but that doesn't mean I'm gonna join in and disrespect their heritage by dressing in their womens clothing. It really amazes me at what people are thinking - obviously they aren't.

I'm not tryin to mean to you - but after all you asked for our opinion. But I do know that this would not go over well on my rez.

01-07-2004, 04:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
PhoenixFire Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 7	Women in Regalia I have a small question that has caused much debate over several forums online and I wanted to pose the question to you. I do not wish to offend, but have no other way of asking this question, so I’ll be blunt: Are women allowed to wear the dance regalia consisting of but not limited to: Bustle Roach Etc. If the answer is no, why not? I don’t like to ruffle feathers, but I have been getting conflicting answers from everyone. Some say yes. Others say yes but only for educational purposes, as in displaying for a class… And the more common answer is, “How dare you even think of such a thing!” basically no. Again I do not wish to offend anyone by asking this question, but I'd like to know.... Thank you all for your time.... Respectfully, PhoenixFire Last edited by PhoenixFire; 01-07-2004 at 05:40 PM.

01-07-2004, 05:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
PhoenixFire Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 7	I looked into it.. Earlier i posted this message so i thought that i'd give an update... I just spent all day looking up info... talkin to people in chat rooms and they all tell me more power to me! What do you think

01-07-2004, 06:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
spottedeagle The NDN Hugh Heffner Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Soaring over you Posts: 4,258	Women have worn men's regalia in the past. Examples of this are before women had fancy shawl, there were several that danced in men's fancy dance. I have also heard of women dancing the grass dance. Although I have never seen a woman dance anything other than in the women's style of dances. Another exception would be switch dance, where both sexes swap outfits. Most women I know are happy dancing their own style of dances and the tradtions involved in those dances. __________________ The things you are doing today are the traditions of twenty-five years from now. -Daryl Baldwin: Miami

01-07-2004, 09:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
PhoenixFire Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 7	Thanx! You all have been very helpfull! I've learned that it all depends on who will be at the Powwow... It is so weired that you said the thing about "warrior" That was going to be my next question... I understand the signifigance between the dance and the warrior... My next question is, being white and a woman, I have looked long and hard for a tolerant elder willing to take on a student ((In fact I have had no replys to any of my letters)) I am white and a woman who feels the warrior spirit burning inside of her and knows not were to turn...Any suggestions((sorry if I've rambled))~PhoenixFire

01-07-2004, 11:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 792	Try turning to the Army. There are several conflicts going on right now that I am sure could use someone with a warrior spirit burning inside of her. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

01-07-2004, 06:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
sookout sh'nob Boogie Monster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 507	Echo that Spotted Eagle. Also, I'd like to add the following thoughts (and no it's not a warning). Sure, a woman can wear a bustle and roach if she wants too, but she should probably be ready to live up to the standards of the local warrior societies at the drop of a hat. A lot of people where I'm from would be live and let live about it (although I know a couple that might pitch a fit). Also, where I am from, a man doesn't generally dance without a vision - even if it is a spiritual gift passed down within the family or from another warrior, there is still an originating vision that guided the man in bringing this sacred item to life in the physical world. There is a Thunderbird in each sacred eagle feather- and if it's not an eagle feather, there are warrior requirements for crows, ravens, hawks, owls, and turkeys as well. People will talk and that woman will be tested - but then again, proving you are brave is what being a warrior is all about. If you wanted to hedge your bets (and save some wear and tear on your hide), you could request permission from your community or elders. If you have neither, I suggest travelling with friends for support because it will be rough (swapping gender roles ALWAYS is). Of course, if you are a veteren, it's all moot and you can wear whatever warrior items you want too-You've already learned the right.

01-08-2004, 01:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
PhoenixFire Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 7	I couldn't pass the physical requirements... I'm too outtashape.... Like round LOL

01-08-2004, 05:04 AM	#8 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	Is not even gonna get started on this one .. I will just say what I always say be who you were born ! __________________ Better known an loved as Men~Nie Turtles ! Life is what you make it. Becareful what you give . You just might get it back!

01-08-2004, 07:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	I wasnt going to but! Ok here it is .. There are some things that should be left as they were ment to be . The men have their regalia an the women have theirs an that is as it should be . The problem with today is everyone is trying to mix it up make it what it was not suppose to be hence we have so much that is not right with mother earth now . Take it back the way it was , dont try an bring to it what it was never ment to be . Let our heritage speak for itself . Be who you are . WE cant change who we were born an I for one dont want to . If you want to dance then do it in the proper way . I am not going to rip you a new one but I for one would not take kindly to seeing a woman in a mans regalia just because they feel a warrior in there heart . I am a former Marine I earned my feathers . An I would never AN I mean never dress in a manner that was not ment for me . So you are round ... Find a style of dance that fits who you are an dance with respect . That is the problem today we have so many ppl doing things they have no idea what its meaning is . Learn understand that the creator sent us to the families we were ment to spend time with learn that culture an if you are lucky enough to share some of ours so be it . Becareful where you tred some wont take it so kindly . The elders have good reason why they do not answer . Take that with a ton of salt . Ok its time for me to go to sleep before I really say something rude.:devil __________________ Better known an loved as Men~Nie Turtles ! Life is what you make it. Becareful what you give . You just might get it back!

01-08-2004, 02:54 PM	#11 (permalink)
White Powwow Dancer Brakeman Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: ONIGAMIINSING (Little portage) Posts: 1,305	Women in Regalia __________________ Asema Is Sacred Traditional Use, Not Misuse Wakan Tanka please have compassion on me. OK Niji we are running a train with red over yellow at this powwow.

01-08-2004, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
PhoenixFire Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 7	Thank you Okay... first... I had decided after my second post on this thread to dance in women regaliaif I even am deemed worthy to learn!... I have noone in my area to talk to... I live in an intolerant white town and have no mode of transportation, e-mail and forum discussions seemed a logical choice. This is an exerpt from an e-mail, that touched me deeply regarding dance: "I know what you mean by the drum making you want to dance. That is the way it should be. The drum beat is representative of the heartbeat of Mother Earth and moves us all... There are many beautiful ways you can reflect your feelings in your regalia and dance... The Creator made women with much more strength than we men. You do not have to prove you are a worior like we do. For this reason, you can dance proud that you are strong and beautiful, just the way the Creator made you." I like to be respectful of customs and traditions... I do not wish to offend through my ignorance, however, how am I to learn,know, & grow if I don't ask? I do not like to be chastised by some ((not all here are)) for asking a question that i knew not the answer to. I again would like to offer my original intent of not wanting to offend, I'm deeply sorry if I have... Humbly, Phoenix Last edited by PhoenixFire; 01-08-2004 at 03:53 PM.

01-09-2004, 12:47 AM	#13 (permalink)
White Powwow Dancer Brakeman Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: ONIGAMIINSING (Little portage) Posts: 1,305	Hi PhoenixFire To be warrior go into firefighting too. __________________ Asema Is Sacred Traditional Use, Not Misuse Wakan Tanka please have compassion on me. OK Niji we are running a train with red over yellow at this powwow.

01-09-2004, 12:57 AM	#14 (permalink)
KoolNDN ON THE PROWL... Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 431	You should be yourself, not someone your not. You are a white woman - if the creator wanted you to wear a roach, bustle and etc... he would have made you an ndn man. I would say go to powwows, enjoy the music, participate in an intertribal or round dance but leave it that. I myself admire and respect many cultures - but that doesn't mean I'm gonna join in and disrespect their heritage by dressing in their womens clothing. It really amazes me at what people are thinking - obviously they aren't. I'm not tryin to mean to you - but after all you asked for our opinion. But I do know that this would not go over well on my rez. Last edited by KoolNDN; 01-09-2004 at 01:02 AM.