Singing Criteria

WhoMe · 03-14-2007, 11:29 AM

I need some advice in setting up 5 criteria to judge singers/drum groups on.

I will be using this in a real tabulation form.

Two criteria that I would like to consider are:

1. Quality of the Lead
2. Quality and Precision of the Second

One criterion that is used at a lot of powwows is “cleanliness” of the drum area. In my opinion, I do not think this should count equally as actual singing. I would rather just provide garbage sacks and tell the drums that cleanliness around their drums is strongly encouraged. What do you think?

Are there any criteria that would just apply to northern singing and not apply to southern singing?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Paul G · 03-14-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

I need some advice in setting up 5 criteria to judge singers/drum groups on.

I will be using this in a real tabulation form.

Two criteria that I would like to consider are:

1. Quality of the Lead
2. Quality and Precision of the Second

One criterion that is used at a lot of powwows is “cleanliness” of the drum area. In my opinion, I do not think this should count equally as actual singing. I would rather just provide garbage sacks and tell the drums that cleanliness around their drums is strongly encouraged. What do you think?

Are there any criteria that would just apply to northern singing and not apply to southern singing?

Any comments would be appreciated.

Instead of cleanliness how about just a general etiquette criteria. Then the committee can add/deduct points for the way the drum carries themselves.

We've used that in contests here. And it is quite effective for drums that like to wonder and aren't there when they are called to sing!

Noodlz · 03-14-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

I need some advice in setting up 5 criteria to judge singers/drum groups on.

I will be using this in a real tabulation form.

Two criteria that I would like to consider are:

1. Quality of the Lead
2. Quality and Precision of the Second

One criterion that is used at a lot of powwows is “cleanliness” of the drum area. In my opinion, I do not think this should count equally as actual singing. I would rather just provide garbage sacks and tell the drums that cleanliness around their drums is strongly encouraged. What do you think?

Are there any criteria that would just apply to northern singing and not apply to southern singing?

Any comments would be appreciated.

I agree with you on the cleanliness point. It should be strongly encouraged, but unless someone is completely disrespectful about it (crap piled all around them all weekend) I don't see it is a real criteria for a singing contest. Just too many problems...what's clean to some people is dirty to others. It's a job for the AD or pow-wow committee, but not singing criteria. I've seen people give zeros for cleanliness on judge ballots for one cigarette butt being in the drum area and 10s for soda cans and just eaten food all over the ground. Those zeros matter and it's one of those things that lead people to being unhappy with results or charging a pow-wow as being unfair.

When it comes to the criteria, the area you judge in...the kind of pow-wow and how tight you forecast the contest to be should be considerations also. One of the better things Schemitzun used to do back in the day was to use 6 judges and throw out the high and low scores on each song to help combat favoritism or unfair judging practices. If you got a really tight contest set up that weekend....that's something I would consider, but it's extra work.

There's also little things that I think make a huge difference. Judge's should have to sign their score sheets and use PEN to make them more valid. I think we've all heard rumors about this head judge and that head judge handing out pencils for their drum judges to use and the possibility about scores being changed etc....just one of the ways to keep a contest more legitimate and give less to complain about.

The criteria on the actual ballot is tough to figure out. Anything you put on there is subjective so you have to consider the quality of your judges when putting it together. If you're at a larger pow-wow with a good choice of quality judges then you can add fine points of judging and be reasonably assured all the judges will know how to judge those fine points (drum beat/tempo, appropriate song, overall feel of the song (goosebump factor ;)). If your choice of judges is severely limited and the contest is small....I'd probably lessen it and simplify it to make things more clear.

And just personally....I'd instruct the judges that scores of all zeros or 1's are not to be accepted. It's a cop out and some judges find any reason whatsoever to drop a possible score down to zero...especially if their personal politics are involved. Judges should have to judge and that means turning in an actual legitimate score.

Noodlz

shinobmatt · 03-14-2007, 12:57 PM

i agree wit the points noodlz has made i also want to add that here in the south they add one for appropriate dress now being from different areas and being a singer myself this one is kinda unusual in that most singers wear what is comfortable to sing in during the day it may be shorts and a t shirt even at night but here if your not in sundays best they score you low case in point during a celebration in august of last year sum bros from another state came to sing but had to find a store to buy clothes because of this rule which they said was rediculous and i agree with them cause people come to hear you sing not to see what your are wearing.

Coyot_In_The_House · 03-14-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodlz

I agree with you on the cleanliness point. It should be strongly encouraged, but unless someone is completely disrespectful about it (crap piled all around them all weekend) I don't see it is a real criteria for a singing contest. Just too many problems...what's clean to some people is dirty to others. It's a job for the AD or pow-wow committee, but not singing criteria. I've seen people give zeros for cleanliness on judge ballots for one cigarette butt being in the drum area and 10s for soda cans and just eaten food all over the ground. Those zeros matter and it's one of those things that lead people to being unhappy with results or charging a pow-wow as being unfair.

When it comes to the criteria, the area you judge in...the kind of pow-wow and how tight you forecast the contest to be should be considerations also. One of the better things Schemitzun used to do back in the day was to use 6 judges and throw out the high and low scores on each song to help combat favoritism or unfair judging practices. If you got a really tight contest set up that weekend....that's something I would consider, but it's extra work.

There's also little things that I think make a huge difference. Judge's should have to sign their score sheets and use PEN to make them more valid. I think we've all heard rumors about this head judge and that head judge handing out pencils for their drum judges to use and the possibility about scores being changed etc....just one of the ways to keep a contest more legitimate and give less to complain about.

The criteria on the actual ballot is tough to figure out. Anything you put on there is subjective so you have to consider the quality of your judges when putting it together. If you're at a larger pow-wow with a good choice of quality judges then you can add fine points of judging and be reasonably assured all the judges will know how to judge those fine points (drum beat/tempo, appropriate song, overall feel of the song (goosebump factor ;)). If your choice of judges is severely limited and the contest is small....I'd probably lessen it and simplify it to make things more clear.

And just personally....I'd instruct the judges that scores of all zeros or 1's are not to be accepted. It's a cop out and some judges find any reason whatsoever to drop a possible score down to zero...especially if their personal politics are involved. Judges should have to judge and that means turning in an actual legitimate score.

Noodlz

Well said.....

ntownn8ive · 03-14-2007, 02:24 PM

Alright, I'll voice it again: Similar with Ol' Style Northern, (best to my knowledge), Southern drums only had one lead singer. Givin' points for the drum passin' around leads should be for the contemporary northern or southern drum groups.

Cleanliness kinda falls along the same lines as being present for drum roll call. It's a courtesy type thing. It could be incorporated into a spot check type thing, maybe once per session. Make sure everyone knows how to put cans and bottles in garbage bags, I guess.

Normal, or widely used criteria are lead, pickup, drumming in beat, appropriateness of song....we talked about crowd reaction and stuff too on Coyot's thread, might wanna check that out for a minute, anyways.

WhoMe · 03-14-2007, 06:04 PM

Paul, Noodlz, Shinobm, 'Yote and ntown,

Thank you for your suggestions and comments.

So far you have suggested the criteria of:

1. General etiquette - carrying yourself around the drum.
2. Drumbeat/Tempo - perfect rhythm? syncronized drumsticks? drumming in beat.
3. Appropriate song - song made specifically for that dance?
4. Overall feeling of the song - "goosebump factor."
5. Crowd reaction - crowd stimulation?

The Suggestions:

1. Adding or deducting points according to how a drum conducts itself. Being in place to sing when called upon.
2. Do not use cleanliness as a scoring factor. Possibly have spot checks.
3. Use 6 judges and disregard highest and lowest scores.
4. Use pens when scoring on tabulation sheet.
5. No scoring zero's or 1 point on a 1-10 scoring system.
6. Do not count on how the drum dresses as this is a singing contest not a dressing contest.
7. Original style singers should not pass leads. For contemporary drums, this is acceptable.

Excellent feedback.

Any more?

Str8Dancer49 · 03-14-2007, 08:00 PM

the southern version of this thread got locked, so I'll just post my $.02 here....

on the clean drum area - I agree, it gets way to much weight - on some ballots i've seen it carry the same weight as "appropriate song" or "vocal quality." It should be a yes no thing, like plus one point for a clean area, but don't penalize if the guys have been busy w/ the wife/snag, kids, remembering that keen song, etc.....

Also, I think appropriateness of the songs should be a high priority - it's just dumb when guys break out a song that says "all you men, lets go kill our enemy" for a women's tradish song! Of course, this means you have to pick judges that are REALLY knowledgeable,and that is freaking hard. I dare say alot of powwow people don't know each and every song in that kind of specific detail - but if you figure out a way to really accurately and fairly judge this one, let us know!

Also, when picking judges, I think head judges/ADs need to literally sit down with them and run over the criteria. Get them to print their name and sign their ballot - and then post the ballots at the end of the contest so everybody can see how things shook out - that'l keep judges fair, and it will eliminate any complaining about "we got screwed!"

Also, even though judges shouldn't be giving 0s and 1s for every mark, I've found that many judges (especially ones who aren't really comfortable judging drums) just write the highest score for everything. Man, that makes tabulation a nightmare, when every drum has the highest possible score cause the judges didn't wanna take off points for whatever. Instruct your judges that it's OK to take off points - tell 'em to write a note in the margin justifying it if they want, especially if you post the ballots.

Coyot_In_The_House · 03-15-2007, 01:09 PM

Posting Ballots....I like that....Folks see who's judging or who's the Head Staff, so why not?

Some ballots i've seen literally make you sick.......The infamous unsigned ballot? Then the one judge who leaves something blank? The one ballot that is miles off from the average (either ridiculously higher, or lower). Clearly a reason why Noodlz mentioned the idea of tossing a ballot in his post. Gotta love the one judge who apparantly has no clue they scored a song backwards?

Choosing judges is key....Nothing worse then scoping out the judges and you sit there and say in your mind WTF!?

Heres a good one....A judge is selected and they hand the ballot off to someone else (mind you who might be "controversial") who darts in on the 3rd start of the song and follows to the letter some of the examples mentioned above....

As well when will you ever satisfy everyone? There will always be one or two people who don't agree with the outcome of the Singing Contest? It's not always a horror show, but above average at best.....

stillrezin · 03-15-2007, 02:09 PM

dont forget to give some points to the group who has members that are or have:

the greeziest faces.

best hickies from the previous nights snag.

the bushiest hair from oversleeping from the extra-curricular he attended the night before.

*note to the serious posters.just some suggestions and some humor. so dont be taking me all serious now. LOL>

ntownn8ive · 03-15-2007, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillrezin

dont forget to give some points to the group who has members that are or have:

the greeziest faces.

best hickies from the previous nights snag.

the bushiest hair from oversleeping from the extra-curricular he attended the night before.

*note to the serious posters.just some suggestions and some humor. so dont be taking me all serious now. LOL>

I'd contribute to the bushiest hair points! That one d'be easy!

Wakalapi · 03-20-2007, 01:16 AM

Many groups have a different "flavor" to their music.
I'll bet this group sings pepperoni.

03-14-2007, 11:29 AM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,560	Singing Criteria I need some advice in setting up 5 criteria to judge singers/drum groups on. I will be using this in a real tabulation form. Two criteria that I would like to consider are: 1. Quality of the Lead 2. Quality and Precision of the Second One criterion that is used at a lot of powwows is “cleanliness” of the drum area. In my opinion, I do not think this should count equally as actual singing. I would rather just provide garbage sacks and tell the drums that cleanliness around their drums is strongly encouraged. What do you think? Are there any criteria that would just apply to northern singing and not apply to southern singing? Any comments would be appreciated. __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 03-14-2007 at 11:31 AM.

03-14-2007, 02:24 PM	#6 (permalink)
ntownn8ive As you can see... Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: We get a lot of sun in Ntown! Posts: 5,786 Blog Entries: 1	Alright, I'll voice it again: Similar with Ol' Style Northern, (best to my knowledge), Southern drums only had one lead singer. Givin' points for the drum passin' around leads should be for the contemporary northern or southern drum groups. Cleanliness kinda falls along the same lines as being present for drum roll call. It's a courtesy type thing. It could be incorporated into a spot check type thing, maybe once per session. Make sure everyone knows how to put cans and bottles in garbage bags, I guess. Normal, or widely used criteria are lead, pickup, drumming in beat, appropriateness of song....we talked about crowd reaction and stuff too on Coyot's thread, might wanna check that out for a minute, anyways. __________________

03-14-2007, 06:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,560	Paul, Noodlz, Shinobm, 'Yote and ntown, Thank you for your suggestions and comments. So far you have suggested the criteria of: 1. General etiquette - carrying yourself around the drum. 2. Drumbeat/Tempo - perfect rhythm? syncronized drumsticks? drumming in beat. 3. Appropriate song - song made specifically for that dance? 4. Overall feeling of the song - "goosebump factor." 5. Crowd reaction - crowd stimulation? The Suggestions: 1. Adding or deducting points according to how a drum conducts itself. Being in place to sing when called upon. 2. Do not use cleanliness as a scoring factor. Possibly have spot checks. 3. Use 6 judges and disregard highest and lowest scores. 4. Use pens when scoring on tabulation sheet. 5. No scoring zero's or 1 point on a 1-10 scoring system. 6. Do not count on how the drum dresses as this is a singing contest not a dressing contest. 7. Original style singers should not pass leads. For contemporary drums, this is acceptable. Excellent feedback. Any more? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 03-14-2007 at 06:15 PM.

03-14-2007, 08:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Str8Dancer49 Some Kinda Monster Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: In the 505 Posts: 221	the southern version of this thread got locked, so I'll just post my $.02 here.... on the clean drum area - I agree, it gets way to much weight - on some ballots i've seen it carry the same weight as "appropriate song" or "vocal quality." It should be a yes no thing, like plus one point for a clean area, but don't penalize if the guys have been busy w/ the wife/snag, kids, remembering that keen song, etc..... Also, I think appropriateness of the songs should be a high priority - it's just dumb when guys break out a song that says "all you men, lets go kill our enemy" for a women's tradish song! Of course, this means you have to pick judges that are REALLY knowledgeable,and that is freaking hard. I dare say alot of powwow people don't know each and every song in that kind of specific detail - but if you figure out a way to really accurately and fairly judge this one, let us know! Also, when picking judges, I think head judges/ADs need to literally sit down with them and run over the criteria. Get them to print their name and sign their ballot - and then post the ballots at the end of the contest so everybody can see how things shook out - that'l keep judges fair, and it will eliminate any complaining about "we got screwed!" Also, even though judges shouldn't be giving 0s and 1s for every mark, I've found that many judges (especially ones who aren't really comfortable judging drums) just write the highest score for everything. Man, that makes tabulation a nightmare, when every drum has the highest possible score cause the judges didn't wanna take off points for whatever. Instruct your judges that it's OK to take off points - tell 'em to write a note in the margin justifying it if they want, especially if you post the ballots. __________________ Functionless art is simply tolerated vandalism.

03-15-2007, 01:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Coyot_In_The_House uhvdlv Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,967	Interesting..... Posting Ballots....I like that....Folks see who's judging or who's the Head Staff, so why not? Some ballots i've seen literally make you sick.......The infamous unsigned ballot? Then the one judge who leaves something blank? The one ballot that is miles off from the average (either ridiculously higher, or lower). Clearly a reason why Noodlz mentioned the idea of tossing a ballot in his post. Gotta love the one judge who apparantly has no clue they scored a song backwards? Choosing judges is key....Nothing worse then scoping out the judges and you sit there and say in your mind WTF!? Heres a good one....A judge is selected and they hand the ballot off to someone else (mind you who might be "controversial") who darts in on the 3rd start of the song and follows to the letter some of the examples mentioned above.... As well when will you ever satisfy everyone? There will always be one or two people who don't agree with the outcome of the Singing Contest? It's not always a horror show, but above average at best.....

03-14-2007, 12:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
shinobmatt Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: May 2006 Location: OKC Posts: 69	i agree wit the points noodlz has made i also want to add that here in the south they add one for appropriate dress now being from different areas and being a singer myself this one is kinda unusual in that most singers wear what is comfortable to sing in during the day it may be shorts and a t shirt even at night but here if your not in sundays best they score you low case in point during a celebration in august of last year sum bros from another state came to sing but had to find a store to buy clothes because of this rule which they said was rediculous and i agree with them cause people come to hear you sing not to see what your are wearing.

03-15-2007, 02:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
stillrezin REZIN RIDE Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: 3rd tipi on the left just past the broken down car and the pack of rez dogs chasing horse's Posts: 31,260 Blog Entries: 5	dont forget to give some points to the group who has members that are or have: the greeziest faces. best hickies from the previous nights snag. the bushiest hair from oversleeping from the extra-curricular he attended the night before. *note to the serious posters.just some suggestions and some humor. so dont be taking me all serious now. LOL> __________________ ...GoT GreaSe?... www.Grease.It.Ayye.com RezinInc

03-20-2007, 01:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
Wakalapi www.wakalapi.com Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: East of the Mountains Posts: 1,283	Many groups have a different "flavor" to their music. I'll bet this group sings pepperoni.