German Northern Drum

WhoMe · 12-06-2006, 03:37 PM

I have a true dillemma that perhaps you can help me out...

I am helping to put together a large powwow that will take place next year.

I just got a letter from a friend who just returned from a powwow in Germany. He said that one of the German drums has expressed an interest of coming to the United States and setting up at this powwow that I am working on.

I have mixed feelings about this.

What advice do you have?

LISA IRONMAKER · 12-06-2006, 03:51 PM

why do you have mixed feels for this drum group? if I were you, I would let da drum group come to your pow-wow and let them sing. I was raised around pow-wows and I come from a very well known tradish family. I was always told to respect da singers and let them sing. You know without singers, we would not be able to have a pow-wow today.

**Wojapi4Me** · 12-06-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LISA IRONMAKER

why do you have mixed feels for this drum group? if I were you, I would let da drum group come to your pow-wow and let them sing. I was raised around pow-wows and I come from a very well known tradish family. I was always told to respect da singers and let them sing. You know without singers, we would not be able to have a pow-wow today.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If this is the pow wow I'm thinking of, I plan to attend and would very much enjoy seeing a drum from Germany...if nothing else out of sheer curiosity.

Isn't one of the main focuses of this pow wow education? This would be a good way to provide education for a lot of people who don't realize that pow wows do occur overseas and it would be a GREAT opportunity for the German singers to sit up at a gathering of Indian people and maybe take some real information back home with them.

Just my thoughts.

WhoMe · 12-06-2006, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wojapi4Me

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. If this is the pow wow I'm thinking of, I plan to attend and would very much enjoy seeing a drum from Germany...if nothing else out of sheer curiosity.

Isn't one of the main focuses of this pow wow education? This would be a good way to provide education for a lot of people who don't realize that pow wows do occur overseas and it would be a GREAT opportunity for the German singers to sit up at a gathering of Indian people and maybe take some real information back home with them.

Just my thoughts.

Lisa and Wojapi,

I agree with both of you. My first thought was to say okay.

But the concerns I have are:

Because there is so much controversy about nonIndians participating in Indian ways on powwows.com, will this controversy spill over if they participate at our powwow?

Should we allow them to compete with the Native drums? (We haven't set drum rules yet).

Will some of the Native powwow participants offend them if they are our guests?

Will they be able to produce appropriate songs if they are called upon "in drum order?"

What do they even sound like?

**Wojapi4Me** · 12-06-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

Lisa and Wojapi,

I agree with both of you. My first thought was to say okay.

But the concerns I have are:

Because there is so much controversy about nonIndians participating in Indian ways on powwows.com, will this controversy spill over if they participate at our powwow? I would sure hope not, but you never can tell. All you can do is hope for the best and hope that people will come with their best manners in hand.

Should we allow them to compete with the Native drums? (We haven't set drum rules yet). I don't see why not. I doubt they'd win, but why not be good hosts and let them fully participate. It certainly wouldn't hurt anyone or anything. I just can't see a German drum group beating out Blackstone or Tha Tribe.

Will some of the Native powwow participants offend them if they are our guests? There are always some idiots who get offended at every single pow wow they go to (especially those east of the Mississippi) so I wouldn't even worry about that one. Some people get riled up if the grand entry order is different than they're used to, or if the contests are run differently, or the frybread doesn't have enough sugar in it...who cares? Just pow wow :)

Will they be able to produce appropriate songs if they are called upon "in drum order?" Well, if they couldn't then the MC would simply skip them. No biggie. I've seen this done to full blood drums countless times.

What do they even sound like? Who knows? But I, for one, am curious and would very much like to find out.

**Kakeeya** · 12-06-2006, 06:05 PM

I think we've shared too much already. I for one wouldn't want to have to dance to their singing if they were to have a song for my category. I'm not too curious about their singing, they're hobbyists and probably sound okay and maybe they'll try to bring their whole dance group too....... naw that don't sound too cool to me, but I'm stingy of our culture even if it's just a powwow.

opwaaganasin · 12-06-2006, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakeeya

I think we've shared too much already. I for one wouldn't want to have to dance to their singing if they were to have a song for my category. I'm not too curious about their singing, they're hobbyists and probably sound okay and maybe they'll try to bring their whole dance group too....... naw that don't sound too cool to me, but I'm stingy of our culture even if it's just a powwow.

Birda is my hero! I hear ya 100% Ask them for a demo!

between2worlds · 12-06-2006, 08:12 PM

If this were my dilemma (which thankfully it is not), I would think that it doesn't matter where the drum is -from- Forest County or the Black Forest - wouldn't you apply the same criteria to EACH drum?

If all North American drums have to be status ndns then you have an answer. If status ndn isn't in your criteria then what is? Even balance of northern and southern styles? Drums that have sent you a CD so you can hear them? Some other measure?

Either way - to be fair - a drum that meets the same criteria as other drums that are being considered should also get a chance - whether they are from a rez, a reserve, Germany or Mars.

Just my .02 from the (very) cheap seats

**eap7** · 12-06-2006, 09:48 PM

Where did they learn from, people in America/Canada, or people in Germany? I think it makes a big difference if a drum group is "self taught" in a foreign country or not.

**WocusWoman** · 12-06-2006, 10:29 PM

If they would like to participate, have them as a guest, not as a regular drum. First, make sure they are a real drum and make sure they sound half-way descent, and if so, allow them to give a presentation of sorts... OK, just changed my mind after a thought just cruised through my mind. I was going to say treat it as a culteral exchange, which does not make since. They are not trying to bring Leider-hosen and brauts, and german dancing with them. They want to bring their "idea" of Native American Culture by way of song and dance to Native America. Whome, I thinks Kakeeya might be correct when you think about it more thoroughly. I at first thought her words were harsh, but sometimes reality is reality.. Goodluck with this issue.

**Kiwehnzii** · 12-07-2006, 12:46 AM

Nein. Aye.

Maybe they'll get you to M.C. their powwow if you let'em sing.

**chazziff** · 12-07-2006, 11:32 AM

well there are alot of full native drum groups out there that cant produce the appropriate song during drum rotation/order (seen it - heard it ALL THE TIME!!) .. thats why the host drum is there lol. if they cant do it, the host drum usually gets called upon.

as for asking for a demo, that would mean you would have to ask for a demo tape/cd from every other drum group that plans on coming to your pow wow - to compete or not. just to be fair .. this might open ya all up for a discrimination suit .. lol.

anyways, let them come. if they can sing as well as some of them can bead (come on you've all seen piictures of some of the men's and women's northern traditional beadwork from europe - some of it is really deadly .. lol), let em come and sing.

might be a learning experience for all involved ..

WhoMe · 12-07-2006, 04:37 PM

Kakeeya,

Im hearing ya. We do have some cultural integrities and responsibities that supersede novelty.

Between2,

I'm hearing ya. However, I think one of the rules is that you have to be American Indian to compete. I am not sure how strictly this is enforced.

ww,

This is a good consideration. Perhaps they can sing only for intertribals? That way they will have the least possiblity of offending the Indian participants.

Kiweh,

I don't sprekin' z deutch (sp?)! I only know how to say some naughty words. *L

Chaz,

You're right. Not every native drum can sing an appropriate song for EVERY category.

12-06-2006, 03:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,560	German Northern Drum I have a true dillemma that perhaps you can help me out... I am helping to put together a large powwow that will take place next year. I just got a letter from a friend who just returned from a powwow in Germany. He said that one of the German drums has expressed an interest of coming to the United States and setting up at this powwow that I am working on. I have mixed feelings about this. What advice do you have? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 12-06-2006 at 03:41 PM.

12-07-2006, 11:32 AM	#12 (permalink)
chazziff YO!! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in a big sleigh bed Posts: 6,514	well there are alot of full native drum groups out there that cant produce the appropriate song during drum rotation/order (seen it - heard it ALL THE TIME!!) .. thats why the host drum is there lol. if they cant do it, the host drum usually gets called upon. as for asking for a demo, that would mean you would have to ask for a demo tape/cd from every other drum group that plans on coming to your pow wow - to compete or not. just to be fair .. this might open ya all up for a discrimination suit .. lol. anyways, let them come. if they can sing as well as some of them can bead (come on you've all seen piictures of some of the men's and women's northern traditional beadwork from europe - some of it is really deadly .. lol), let em come and sing. might be a learning experience for all involved .. __________________ See I wanna move, but can't escape from you So I keep it low, keep a secret code So everybody else don't have to know So keep ya love locked down

12-07-2006, 04:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,560	Kakeeya, Im hearing ya. We do have some cultural integrities and responsibities that supersede novelty. Between2, I'm hearing ya. However, I think one of the rules is that you have to be American Indian to compete. I am not sure how strictly this is enforced. ww, This is a good consideration. Perhaps they can sing only for intertribals? That way they will have the least possiblity of offending the Indian participants. Kiweh, I don't sprekin' z deutch (sp?)! I only know how to say some naughty words. L Chaz, You're right. Not every native drum can sing an appropriate song for EVERY category. __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 12-07-2006 at 04:39 PM.*

12-06-2006, 03:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
LISA IRONMAKER Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: FORT BELKNAP REZ, MT Posts: 2,814	why do you have mixed feels for this drum group? if I were you, I would let da drum group come to your pow-wow and let them sing. I was raised around pow-wows and I come from a very well known tradish family. I was always told to respect da singers and let them sing. You know without singers, we would not be able to have a pow-wow today.

12-06-2006, 06:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
Kakeeya PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: By a mountain on the Rez Posts: 2,553	I think we've shared too much already. I for one wouldn't want to have to dance to their singing if they were to have a song for my category. I'm not too curious about their singing, they're hobbyists and probably sound okay and maybe they'll try to bring their whole dance group too....... naw that don't sound too cool to me, but I'm stingy of our culture even if it's just a powwow.

12-06-2006, 08:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
between2worlds Patrick Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Riverdale, MD Posts: 2,739	If this were my dilemma (which thankfully it is not), I would think that it doesn't matter where the drum is -from- Forest County or the Black Forest - wouldn't you apply the same criteria to EACH drum? If all North American drums have to be status ndns then you have an answer. If status ndn isn't in your criteria then what is? Even balance of northern and southern styles? Drums that have sent you a CD so you can hear them? Some other measure? Either way - to be fair - a drum that meets the same criteria as other drums that are being considered should also get a chance - whether they are from a rez, a reserve, Germany or Mars. Just my .02 from the (very) cheap seats

12-06-2006, 09:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
eap7 ~Erica~ Join Date: Apr 2000 Posts: 1,239 Blog Entries: 5	Where did they learn from, people in America/Canada, or people in Germany? I think it makes a big difference if a drum group is "self taught" in a foreign country or not.

12-06-2006, 10:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
WocusWoman N8tiffUmatillaMAMA Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Interior Alaska Posts: 2,737	If they would like to participate, have them as a guest, not as a regular drum. First, make sure they are a real drum and make sure they sound half-way descent, and if so, allow them to give a presentation of sorts... OK, just changed my mind after a thought just cruised through my mind. I was going to say treat it as a culteral exchange, which does not make since. They are not trying to bring Leider-hosen and brauts, and german dancing with them. They want to bring their "idea" of Native American Culture by way of song and dance to Native America. Whome, I thinks Kakeeya might be correct when you think about it more thoroughly. I at first thought her words were harsh, but sometimes reality is reality.. Goodluck with this issue.

12-07-2006, 12:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,871	Nein. Aye. Maybe they'll get you to M.C. their powwow if you let'em sing.

12-07-2006, 04:58 PM	#14 (permalink)
indian-heart-beat Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Porta Westfalica Posts: 12,640