For profit or the people?

Dagnome · 03-30-2006, 12:53 PM

It may be early for me to touch on a subject like this one. I dont know how many of you travel the powwow trail and see the kind of drums I am about to describe, but if you do, you'll know what I speak of.

When I go to a powwow I go to sing for the people. I go to sing for the prayer and healing powers the drum has to offer everyone at the powwow. Recently, I was at a powwow and saw a drum who asked for a good deal of money, in turn, we hadto go their with no funds to pay for gas (This being an hour and half long drive mind you). I have also been around and seen drums being very snotty and disresepectful towards the people around their circle or even other drums. I guess what I am not understanding is, how could something so old and sacred as drumming turn into some sort of profit spot?

I understand what kind of world we live in, I am not to thrilled about it. We live in a very money/material based world. It just blows my mind that people turn something so old and well respected as drumming into a simple pastime to gain a few extra bucks while you gloat about how good you are. Now, I may be out of my elemement, and please excuse me if I am wrong for saying what I just have. I can only hope that these drums who "Sing for profit" are somewhere, deep inside, really doing it for the right reasons.

The drum I am on isnt like this at all. We only ask for enough money for gas beacuse traveling is a real world cost. Thats all we ask for, anything else we are givin usually goes to a dancer or someone who caugt our attention. We dont do this for profit. We go more on the old traditions, everyone has a right to hear the music that the good spirits blessed us with. Thats just us though.

What do you sing for when you sit at the drum?

Wyldwolf52 · 03-30-2006, 01:26 PM

About a year ago I asked these folk why are you dancing for money? Is not dance a way to pray to the creator?
I got slammed real hard by the east coast folk.

debbieyd · 03-30-2006, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagnome

It may be early for me to touch on a subject like this one. I dont know how many of you travel the powwow trail and see the kind of drums I am about to describe, but if you do, you'll know what I speak of.

When I go to a powwow I go to sing for the people. I go to sing for the prayer and healing powers the drum has to offer everyone at the powwow. Recently, I was at a powwow and saw a drum who asked for a good deal of money, in turn, we hadto go their with no funds to pay for gas (This being an hour and half long drive mind you). I have also been around and seen drums being very snotty and disresepectful towards the people around their circle or even other drums. I guess what I am not understanding is, how could something so old and sacred as drumming turn into some sort of profit spot?

I understand what kind of world we live in, I am not to thrilled about it. We live in a very money/material based world. It just blows my mind that people turn something so old and well respected as drumming into a simple pastime to gain a few extra bucks while you gloat about how good you are. Now, I may be out of my elemement, and please excuse me if I am wrong for saying what I just have. I can only hope that these drums who "Sing for profit" are somewhere, deep inside, really doing it for the right reasons.

The drum I am on isnt like this at all. We only ask for enough money for gas beacuse traveling is a real world cost. Thats all we ask for, anything else we are givin usually goes to a dancer or someone who caugt our attention. We dont do this for profit. We go more on the old traditions, everyone has a right to hear the music that the good spirits blessed us with. Thats just us though.

What do you sing for when you sit at the drum?

when I was a kid and we traveled to other states and Canada, my dad worked hard for his money that got us to powwows & back home, we met a lot of friendly and compassionate people on the trail, that made us feel right at home, you don't see that much any more; it's a motel or bust! Commercialism does take priority over traditions any more! No way around it I guess, especially if the drummers/dancers don't work for a living.

Brown wlf · 03-30-2006, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagnome

It may be early for me to touch on a subject like this one. I dont know how many of you travel the powwow trail and see the kind of drums I am about to describe, but if you do, you'll know what I speak of.

When I go to a powwow I go to sing for the people. I go to sing for the prayer and healing powers the drum has to offer everyone at the powwow. Recently, I was at a powwow and saw a drum who asked for a good deal of money, in turn, we hadto go their with no funds to pay for gas (This being an hour and half long drive mind you). I have also been around and seen drums being very snotty and disresepectful towards the people around their circle or even other drums. I guess what I am not understanding is, how could something so old and sacred as drumming turn into some sort of profit spot?

I understand what kind of world we live in, I am not to thrilled about it. We live in a very money/material based world. It just blows my mind that people turn something so old and well respected as drumming into a simple pastime to gain a few extra bucks while you gloat about how good you are. Now, I may be out of my elemement, and please excuse me if I am wrong for saying what I just have. I can only hope that these drums who "Sing for profit" are somewhere, deep inside, really doing it for the right reasons.

The drum I am on isnt like this at all. We only ask for enough money for gas beacuse traveling is a real world cost. Thats all we ask for, anything else we are givin usually goes to a dancer or someone who caugt our attention. We dont do this for profit. We go more on the old traditions, everyone has a right to hear the music that the good spirits blessed us with. Thats just us though.

What do you sing for when you sit at the drum?

Hello,

I am a dancer in your area and have enjoyed dancing to your drum's songs, we are sort of aquaintences.

Are we talking about non-competition dances where a host drum is paid by the commitee?
Some of the drums are sizable , I have no idea what a drum's fee would be. But if they are splitting the money between the singers,and the ladies echoing the drum plus taking care of the costs of bringing the family, I dont know if anyone is really making a killing.

Of course there's no excuse for bad behavior.

It sounds lke your heart is in the right place, what other people do or dont do cant be helped a lot of the time, but what we, ourselves do we own.

See ya on the trail.

Jill

Pushtay Hill · 04-05-2006, 08:18 PM

Yep,sorry to say it's all about the money! I see alot of young thugs that are practicing "our" traditions and ways that we as the older ones have taught them and they don't even show any respect to you on a personal basis,they can't even give you eye contact because their either stoned or hungover! I'm looking for another venue to attend rather then be disrespected by our next generation in these competition pow-wows,...at one time when an older singer wanted to sit at the drum the younger gave place to that older singer and gave him a stick and moved out of the way,but today...these younger singers don't even want an elder on their drum,they figure you're probably too old and will mess up their flow. I'm out.

stillrezin · 04-07-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pushtay Hill

Yep,sorry to say it's all about the money! I see alot of young thugs that are practicing "our" traditions and ways that we as the older ones have taught them and they don't even show any respect to you on a personal basis,they can't even give you eye contact because their either stoned or hungover! I'm looking for another venue to attend rather then be disrespected by our next generation in these competition pow-wows,...at one time when an older singer wanted to sit at the drum the younger gave place to that older singer and gave him a stick and moved out of the way,but today...these younger singers don't even want an elder on their drum,they figure you're probably too old and will mess up their flow. I'm out.

i have to agree with pushtay hill.
i have seen drums ignore the old school singers. they young groups dont think its cool having and elder singer at the drum.
i have sang with numerous drum groups at numerous pw's and the big name groups dont want to miss up thier chances of not placing or messing with the cool vibe.
But there are some big names that invite the old school singers to jam with them.
I like singing with the old school drum groups that are still around. i learn alot from the "Legends".
i got nothing but respect for the elders "old school" singers.

Dagnome · 04-07-2006, 12:09 PM

I think the biggest question is "Why?". Why do these younger drums disrespect their elders? Has the modern world poisoned the minds of the youth today? I dont know if I will ever understand why these groups do these things. Can anyone explain the attitude of the young groups? I would like to know, thats for sure.

**chazziff** · 04-07-2006, 12:29 PM

i believe you have to "blame" their parents for their attitudes - for not teachin them/instilling the value of respecting their Elders. if you weren't told or choose not to respect their Elders (listen to the teachings) - they wont know or do it willingly ...

but the singers i know have and will welcome any Elder or older respected singer that chooses to sit down with them for a song or two ... cuz they know in due time they will be the Elder/older singer wanting to "jam out" like old times ...

sookout sh'nob · 04-07-2006, 05:00 PM

I'd have to say that singing for the people is very profitable. My family has a traditional drum that we hold for the community and anyone (non-inebriated) who shows up is welcome to sing - even those little guys that can't talk yet.

Long story short, we had to build a shed to accomadate all the gifts we had gotten from attending drum ceremonies and powwows. Later on that shed filled up and we had to have a dance of our own to give away that shed full of stuff. A man can only use so many bath towels - but the respect he gets from a giveaway like that is incredible. Sometimes people even bring eagles to the house because they know they'll get where they need to go.

That shed filled up again and we sent it down to New Orleans here after the big flood. Some people got some good blankets and towels and we didn't have to buld a new shed - it's a win/win deal.

I have a cousin who sings for money and he's always needing loans. I know another drum group who's drum got taken away because they were fighting over money. I remember when Midnite Express split off from The Boys because the Boys thought they were too big-time to sing around town. I remember one time Bear Creek, a sober drum, couldn't make it to Minneapolis and they got the Boyz to sing and they were up in the bar chasing women all night. They had Bear Creeks passes on - so people thought they wer eBear Creek acting that way. It got straightened out later, but a couple of those singers on Bear Creek really caught heck from thier parents before things were smoothed out.

Then again, there are a ton of prize winning drum groups (like BC) that get along well and don't have any problems - maybe those guys that don't have the problems respect those traditions and have a good grasp on things. Just like our drum at home, maybe you can sing competition. love the songs, and still have good things happen. I can't say for sure, we don't have any competition people in my family.

All that said, gas money is still allright

Pushtay Hill · 04-07-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sookout sh'nob

I'd have to say that singing for the people is very profitable. My family has a traditional drum that we hold for the community and anyone (non-inebriated) who shows up is welcome to sing - even those little guys that can't talk yet.

Long story short, we had to build a shed to accomadate all the gifts we had gotten from attending drum ceremonies and powwows. Later on that shed filled up and we had to have a dance of our own to give away that shed full of stuff. A man can only use so many bath towels - but the respect he gets from a giveaway like that is incredible. Sometimes people even bring eagles to the house because they know they'll get where they need to go.

That shed filled up again and we sent it down to New Orleans here after the big flood. Some people got some good blankets and towels and we didn't have to buld a new shed - it's a win/win deal.

I have a cousin who sings for money and he's always needing loans. I know another drum group who's drum got taken away because they were fighting over money. I remember when Midnite Express split off from The Boys because the Boys thought they were too big-time to sing around town. I remember one time Bear Creek, a sober drum, couldn't make it to Minneapolis and they got the Boyz to sing and they were up in the bar chasing women all night. They had Bear Creeks passes on - so people thought they wer eBear Creek acting that way. It got straightened out later, but a couple of those singers on Bear Creek really caught heck from thier parents before things were smoothed out.

Then again, there are a ton of prize winning drum groups (like BC) that get along well and don't have any problems - maybe those guys that don't have the problems respect those traditions and have a good grasp on things. Just like our drum at home, maybe you can sing competition. love the songs, and still have good things happen. I can't say for sure, we don't have any competition people in my family.

All that said, gas money is still allright

Holah!! Lotta info there man. I often wonder what it would be like to document a traveling drum group when they're on the road then also video their home lives,of what they do during the week prior to heading out to a big pow-wow. Show the after pow-wow parties footage,the "49" stuff,I bet that would be crazy. Maybe it would open some peoples eyes,...Drummers Gone Wild!" I've heard of some crazy parties that drum groups have had in their hotel rooms,...news travels fast in INDIN country eh?! Wakin' up all painted up is still got to be the craziest thing to have happened to me as a drummer. But I don't do that no more so thats over with. But maybe someone could take this idea of a traveling drum and document what is entailed. Hut'Cha! I'm out.

apacheheart · 04-07-2006, 06:02 PM

....One year,here in the East(surprised?)I was at a powwow,and the host drum hadn't shown up(broke down,typical)and the only other drum there was a women's drum,saw the AD all worried,and asked if I could help.I told him I sang with a drum,and that my guys would probably be able to come up.
I sent out a smoke signal(via cell phone),and rounded up my guyz to sing.They all showed up and needless to say we rocked!!They promised us money,but could'nt pay us until the next day(heard that one a lot),we didn't care about that,we were just glad to be invited back the next day.
Well,the host drum showed up,and then things got wierd.They were a good drum(won't mention any names,but a well known drum),but the powwow commitee began to kiss their ----- and didn't let us do any songs,just forgot we were there.That's when I said"were gonna get money for this,it's not fair that we're sitting here all this time and didn't get to do any songs!!"after the powwow,I made my way over to the office to collect,when I hear from inside arguing.The members of the other drum had the head of the powwow commitee in a corner and were threatening him with bodily harm if they didnt get their pay for BOTH days!!!
Well...he gave them the money and when I went in and asked him for a few bucks so my guys could eat(no free food for singers,had to pay),and gas,he said the other drum tapped him out and that we were basicallySOL....to that point I never thought something like that would happen at one of OUR events!!I grew up on the mean streets of NYC,and that's something I saw every day,but to see that happening at a powwow just made me sick.We left and have never been back there.These guys were from the Midwest,and if that's how they do things there,I'll stay my happy *** in New York!where at least I can see the thugs coming.
Funny how money can ruin something we all hold special,a fun,happy time just turned to crap over money.
I never plan on getting rich doing this,but I sure will not tolerate any bullying or intimidation by anyone over money.And this man was an Elder too....sad.but even on that note,I will use my ending line....keep smilin"1

**billyjoejimbob** · 04-07-2006, 08:04 PM

How about drums that bad mouth other drums so that they get hired for a powwow?

I have seen this happen...to me.

Everyone knows I had (past tense) a drum group that sang at dinky powwows that everyone is afraid to go to. After the powwow we get all sort of praise and invites back the following year. Then we hear nothing. Turns out other drums hosed in and took over. (im sure the main reson we werent called is that the other drums wanted more money)

Wakalapi · 04-09-2006, 09:43 PM

What goes around, comes around ... even if it doesn't come around this year or next year... just hang in there and keep the faith!

03-30-2006, 12:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
Dagnome Everything but Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: New England Posts: 14	For profit or the people? It may be early for me to touch on a subject like this one. I dont know how many of you travel the powwow trail and see the kind of drums I am about to describe, but if you do, you'll know what I speak of. When I go to a powwow I go to sing for the people. I go to sing for the prayer and healing powers the drum has to offer everyone at the powwow. Recently, I was at a powwow and saw a drum who asked for a good deal of money, in turn, we hadto go their with no funds to pay for gas (This being an hour and half long drive mind you). I have also been around and seen drums being very snotty and disresepectful towards the people around their circle or even other drums. I guess what I am not understanding is, how could something so old and sacred as drumming turn into some sort of profit spot? I understand what kind of world we live in, I am not to thrilled about it. We live in a very money/material based world. It just blows my mind that people turn something so old and well respected as drumming into a simple pastime to gain a few extra bucks while you gloat about how good you are. Now, I may be out of my elemement, and please excuse me if I am wrong for saying what I just have. I can only hope that these drums who "Sing for profit" are somewhere, deep inside, really doing it for the right reasons. The drum I am on isnt like this at all. We only ask for enough money for gas beacuse traveling is a real world cost. Thats all we ask for, anything else we are givin usually goes to a dancer or someone who caugt our attention. We dont do this for profit. We go more on the old traditions, everyone has a right to hear the music that the good spirits blessed us with. Thats just us though. What do you sing for when you sit at the drum? Last edited by Dagnome; 03-30-2006 at 12:56 PM.

03-30-2006, 01:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
Wyldwolf52 Springdeer Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 57	watch out!! About a year ago I asked these folk why are you dancing for money? Is not dance a way to pray to the creator? I got slammed real hard by the east coast folk.

04-05-2006, 08:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
Pushtay Hill Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 14	Its all about the money! Yep,sorry to say it's all about the money! I see alot of young thugs that are practicing "our" traditions and ways that we as the older ones have taught them and they don't even show any respect to you on a personal basis,they can't even give you eye contact because their either stoned or hungover! I'm looking for another venue to attend rather then be disrespected by our next generation in these competition pow-wows,...at one time when an older singer wanted to sit at the drum the younger gave place to that older singer and gave him a stick and moved out of the way,but today...these younger singers don't even want an elder on their drum,they figure you're probably too old and will mess up their flow. I'm out.

04-07-2006, 12:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
chazziff YO!! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in a big sleigh bed Posts: 6,514	i believe you have to "blame" their parents for their attitudes - for not teachin them/instilling the value of respecting their Elders. if you weren't told or choose not to respect their Elders (listen to the teachings) - they wont know or do it willingly ... but the singers i know have and will welcome any Elder or older respected singer that chooses to sit down with them for a song or two ... cuz they know in due time they will be the Elder/older singer wanting to "jam out" like old times ... __________________ See I wanna move, but can't escape from you So I keep it low, keep a secret code So everybody else don't have to know So keep ya love locked down

04-07-2006, 06:02 PM	#11 (permalink)
apacheheart Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Peekskill,NY. Posts: 261	Funny Story....but not really. ....One year,here in the East(surprised?)I was at a powwow,and the host drum hadn't shown up(broke down,typical)and the only other drum there was a women's drum,saw the AD all worried,and asked if I could help.I told him I sang with a drum,and that my guys would probably be able to come up. I sent out a smoke signal(via cell phone),and rounded up my guyz to sing.They all showed up and needless to say we rocked!!They promised us money,but could'nt pay us until the next day(heard that one a lot),we didn't care about that,we were just glad to be invited back the next day. Well,the host drum showed up,and then things got wierd.They were a good drum(won't mention any names,but a well known drum),but the powwow commitee began to kiss their ----- and didn't let us do any songs,just forgot we were there.That's when I said"were gonna get money for this,it's not fair that we're sitting here all this time and didn't get to do any songs!!"after the powwow,I made my way over to the office to collect,when I hear from inside arguing.The members of the other drum had the head of the powwow commitee in a corner and were threatening him with bodily harm if they didnt get their pay for BOTH days!!! Well...he gave them the money and when I went in and asked him for a few bucks so my guys could eat(no free food for singers,had to pay),and gas,he said the other drum tapped him out and that we were basicallySOL....to that point I never thought something like that would happen at one of OUR events!!I grew up on the mean streets of NYC,and that's something I saw every day,but to see that happening at a powwow just made me sick.We left and have never been back there.These guys were from the Midwest,and if that's how they do things there,I'll stay my happy *** in New York!where at least I can see the thugs coming. Funny how money can ruin something we all hold special,a fun,happy time just turned to crap over money. I never plan on getting rich doing this,but I sure will not tolerate any bullying or intimidation by anyone over money.And this man was an Elder too....sad.but even on that note,I will use my ending line....keep smilin"1

04-07-2006, 12:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
Dagnome Everything but Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: New England Posts: 14	I think the biggest question is "Why?". Why do these younger drums disrespect their elders? Has the modern world poisoned the minds of the youth today? I dont know if I will ever understand why these groups do these things. Can anyone explain the attitude of the young groups? I would like to know, thats for sure.

04-07-2006, 05:00 PM	#9 (permalink)
sookout sh'nob Boogie Monster Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 543	I'd have to say that singing for the people is very profitable. My family has a traditional drum that we hold for the community and anyone (non-inebriated) who shows up is welcome to sing - even those little guys that can't talk yet. Long story short, we had to build a shed to accomadate all the gifts we had gotten from attending drum ceremonies and powwows. Later on that shed filled up and we had to have a dance of our own to give away that shed full of stuff. A man can only use so many bath towels - but the respect he gets from a giveaway like that is incredible. Sometimes people even bring eagles to the house because they know they'll get where they need to go. That shed filled up again and we sent it down to New Orleans here after the big flood. Some people got some good blankets and towels and we didn't have to buld a new shed - it's a win/win deal. I have a cousin who sings for money and he's always needing loans. I know another drum group who's drum got taken away because they were fighting over money. I remember when Midnite Express split off from The Boys because the Boys thought they were too big-time to sing around town. I remember one time Bear Creek, a sober drum, couldn't make it to Minneapolis and they got the Boyz to sing and they were up in the bar chasing women all night. They had Bear Creeks passes on - so people thought they wer eBear Creek acting that way. It got straightened out later, but a couple of those singers on Bear Creek really caught heck from thier parents before things were smoothed out. Then again, there are a ton of prize winning drum groups (like BC) that get along well and don't have any problems - maybe those guys that don't have the problems respect those traditions and have a good grasp on things. Just like our drum at home, maybe you can sing competition. love the songs, and still have good things happen. I can't say for sure, we don't have any competition people in my family. All that said, gas money is still allright

04-07-2006, 08:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,526	How about drums that bad mouth other drums so that they get hired for a powwow? I have seen this happen...to me. Everyone knows I had (past tense) a drum group that sang at dinky powwows that everyone is afraid to go to. After the powwow we get all sort of praise and invites back the following year. Then we hear nothing. Turns out other drums hosed in and took over. (im sure the main reson we werent called is that the other drums wanted more money)

04-09-2006, 09:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
Wakalapi www.wakalapi.com Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: East of the Mountains Posts: 1,283	What goes around, comes around ... even if it doesn't come around this year or next year... just hang in there and keep the faith! __________________ "Friends don't let friends drink decaf..." Relaunched Nov 1, 2008. Completely rebuilt and easier to use than ever.