Traditionalism vs. Assimulation/Pan-Indianism

lostsalt · 08-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Okay, let bring this subject out in the open. It has been overtaking other legit threads.
So here it is, take off the ignore lists, refrain from personal attacks and name calling. Let everyone have their say without personal judgment. Let us give this discussion the attention it deserves.

Can you be "truely" traditional and modernized at the same time?

Is Assimulation/Pan-indianism the only method to ensure future survival, Long-term/short term?

Tribes defined by culture not bloodlines?
Self-determination of status vs Govt. controlled status?

These are just a few of the questions that have been raised. Feel free to expand.
Lostsalt

kiowakat · 08-01-2007, 02:22 PM

I'm on ignore LMAO, but we all know what I think... hahahaha

**Wojapi4Me** · 08-01-2007, 02:26 PM

For this thread to really take off and be productive, some basic definitions will have to be provided such as:
What is "being traditional"?
What is "modernized"?
What is "being assimilated"?

I would say there are plenty of people living traditionally today with a modern twist. I don't know of anyone personally who still lives in a tipi and hunts buffalo. That would be our nation's definition of traditional. So, does that mean there are no more traditional people? I wouldn't say that at all. There's still plenty who speak the language, go to ceremonies, sing the old songs and know the meanings behind the dances. But, they live in houses, drive cars (sort of..lol...), and watch football on tv

As far as being assimilated, that's a little harder to say...assimilated to what? I'd bet that over 1/2 of all Indians out there are Christians now. I have no data to back that up, but just from looking at Oklahoma alone I'll bet my guess is close. A bunch of them also practice their traditional tribal ways...are they assimilated?

I'm not a Christian, but I do have a job and work...am I assimilated?

Lots of questions around this one question...

lostsalt · 08-01-2007, 02:53 PM

[quote=Wojapi4Me;950145
What is "being traditional"?
What is "modernized"?
What is "being assimilated"?
[/QUOTE]

For the discussion of this thread let's define:
""being traditional" as adhering to or believing in, old theology, rituals, ceremonies, lifeways, interaction with others. This may be ideology as well as material.

"modernized" as tied to the times we live in. Taking the modern viewpoint. Science has explained almost everything. All problems solved through application of theory & resources. The mysteries of the past explained by Science & technology. No actual belief in the stories of old (i.e. creation stories, Iktomi, etc ).

being assimilated/pan-indianisim For this one maybe Zeke could futher explain. I think what was discussed was that releaseing the ties to the old-way because they are at the heart of what hold us back. I'm not too sure.

But please refine these definitions if you want.

crazywolf · 08-02-2007, 10:27 PM

Boozhoo niji,

I do not think the definitions you gave wholey apply to this world today. There are too many grey areas. Who says that you have to live all the traditional ways, the cerimonies, etc, and not do email, cell phone and watch TV on your dish network?

Who says that you have to have a 40 hour a week job and not be able to sweat in the lodge every other weekend?

I for one believe a lot of the old creation stories, at least the Ojibwe ones, the ones I am learning. I believe in them the same way a Christian would believe the old testament. Yet I also believe in a lot of the science that goes on today. There is the whole universe bit, and things with atoms and quantum physics and what not. I dont see why all of that cannot work together. Everything revolves around the Creator. Science is just a way of forming rules on how everything works.

As far as your defination of traditionalism goes, it is dead. We get most of our food from a store of some sort, pay for it with some kind of money, either earned or government provided. Most of the cerimonies are still preformed, but I can imagine a few have been lost over the years, for different reasons.

I believe traditions are important, because you never know, things might go back the way they used to be, possibly overnight. Who knows? I know who knows, and I trust him, thats all that matters.

Derek

lostsalt · 08-03-2007, 12:18 AM

[quote=crazywolf;950407]Boozhoo niji,

Who says that you have to live all the traditional ways, the cerimonies, etc, and not do email, cell phone and watch TV on your dish network?

Who says that you have to have a 40 hour a week job and not be able to sweat in the lodge every other weekend?

As far as your defination of traditionalism goes, it is dead. /QUOTE]

As for who.....
Well that is why I started the thread. Some people, I suppose .... do believe you have to get rid of the old before the new can begin.
You may have missed the threads where it has been implied that to hang onto "traditional ways" is to be chained to your future destruction.
Of course, alot of us believe that it (traditional values/lifeways) is an irreplaceable part of how we conduct ourselves. And is an elementary part of how we live our lives.

IF you want to see the discussions check the threads called
CONTEST POWWOWS
and
WHAT YOU WANT WHITES TO KNOW
for starters

**Josiah** · 08-03-2007, 07:47 AM

Alot of us have a Traditional background and at the same time have to get along in the modern world. Get a job make money and live.

You are also correct I know of no one that can live totally traditional in a modern world. (beside those guys that move to Idaho)

But, The values that make up Traditional ways
The stories that were taught to us spoke of values and how to treat each other
Those can apply to our every day life very easily

As a halfbreed I catch it from both sides not ndn enough or white enough
hahahaha
As if there were a choice, I am who I am!
And it is all how your are raised
ENVIROMENT dictates your values!

There are some fullbloods that know nothing and could care less about that part of them. As far as they are concerned they are Americans and Christians.
And happy to just live and pay taxes
I guess they have been Assimilated

kiowakat · 08-03-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josiah

As a halfbreed I catch it from both sides not ndn enough or white enough
hahahaha

I'm half white but just can't prove it!!....hahahaha

**Josiah** · 08-03-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiowakat

I'm half white but just can't prove it!!....hahahaha

Next your going to say your great great grandmother was an English princess
hahahaha

kiowakat · 08-03-2007, 10:35 AM

yeah and they lived in a log cabin LMAO

Skillet · 08-03-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiowakat

I'm half white but just can't prove it!!....hahahaha

funny,you dont look white!!!

crazywolf · 08-03-2007, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiowakat

yeah and they lived in a log cabin LMAO

Hey do you go to the square dance in a horse and covered wagon? Where is your powdered wig and knickers? I know some other people that are white....

Yeah I love using all of that in public. Some people would give me a strange stare cause of my braids and I would just say, What? I am part white you know?

Actually that post I wrote probably did not come out totally the way I intended. I had a lot on my mind last night so I am sorry if I offended anyone. The white people are after me, they are tryin to keep me down here in Florida cause they like having a slave to fix their lawnmowers. County code enforcement came out and cited me for all my cars, now I got to try to sell em or get rid of em or do something with em. Sheesh. Its gonna cost me some money, and I better not find out who called em on me cause I wasnt doin nothin to no one.

Lets have a pow wow at my house when the weather gets a little cooler and we dont have to worry so much about hurricanes. We can have a traditional 49 and run some sweats and whatnot. And I dont care what the neighbors think, I guess we aint neighbors anymore.

Derek

08-01-2007, 02:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
lostsalt One more push-up,Please! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: where the missouri & kaw rivers meet Posts: 309	Traditionalism vs. Assimulation/Pan-Indianism Okay, let bring this subject out in the open. It has been overtaking other legit threads. So here it is, take off the ignore lists, refrain from personal attacks and name calling. Let everyone have their say without personal judgment. Let us give this discussion the attention it deserves. Can you be "truely" traditional and modernized at the same time? Is Assimulation/Pan-indianism the only method to ensure future survival, Long-term/short term? Tribes defined by culture not bloodlines? Self-determination of status vs Govt. controlled status? These are just a few of the questions that have been raised. Feel free to expand. Lostsalt __________________ "Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." JW

08-01-2007, 02:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,493	For this thread to really take off and be productive, some basic definitions will have to be provided such as: What is "being traditional"? What is "modernized"? What is "being assimilated"? I would say there are plenty of people living traditionally today with a modern twist. I don't know of anyone personally who still lives in a tipi and hunts buffalo. That would be our nation's definition of traditional. So, does that mean there are no more traditional people? I wouldn't say that at all. There's still plenty who speak the language, go to ceremonies, sing the old songs and know the meanings behind the dances. But, they live in houses, drive cars (sort of..lol...), and watch football on tv As far as being assimilated, that's a little harder to say...assimilated to what? I'd bet that over 1/2 of all Indians out there are Christians now. I have no data to back that up, but just from looking at Oklahoma alone I'll bet my guess is close. A bunch of them also practice their traditional tribal ways...are they assimilated? I'm not a Christian, but I do have a job and work...am I assimilated? Lots of questions around this one question... __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

08-01-2007, 02:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
lostsalt One more push-up,Please! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: where the missouri & kaw rivers meet Posts: 309	[quote=Wojapi4Me;950145 What is "being traditional"? What is "modernized"? What is "being assimilated"? [/QUOTE] For the discussion of this thread let's define: ""being traditional" as adhering to or believing in, old theology, rituals, ceremonies, lifeways, interaction with others. This may be ideology as well as material. "modernized" as tied to the times we live in. Taking the modern viewpoint. Science has explained almost everything. All problems solved through application of theory & resources. The mysteries of the past explained by Science & technology. No actual belief in the stories of old (i.e. creation stories, Iktomi, etc ). being assimilated/pan-indianisim For this one maybe Zeke could futher explain. I think what was discussed was that releaseing the ties to the old-way because they are at the heart of what hold us back. I'm not too sure. But please refine these definitions if you want. __________________ "Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." JW

08-02-2007, 10:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
crazywolf crazywolf Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: unsettled for now, MN Posts: 856 Blog Entries: 5	Grey areas Boozhoo niji, I do not think the definitions you gave wholey apply to this world today. There are too many grey areas. Who says that you have to live all the traditional ways, the cerimonies, etc, and not do email, cell phone and watch TV on your dish network? Who says that you have to have a 40 hour a week job and not be able to sweat in the lodge every other weekend? I for one believe a lot of the old creation stories, at least the Ojibwe ones, the ones I am learning. I believe in them the same way a Christian would believe the old testament. Yet I also believe in a lot of the science that goes on today. There is the whole universe bit, and things with atoms and quantum physics and what not. I dont see why all of that cannot work together. Everything revolves around the Creator. Science is just a way of forming rules on how everything works. As far as your defination of traditionalism goes, it is dead. We get most of our food from a store of some sort, pay for it with some kind of money, either earned or government provided. Most of the cerimonies are still preformed, but I can imagine a few have been lost over the years, for different reasons. I believe traditions are important, because you never know, things might go back the way they used to be, possibly overnight. Who knows? I know who knows, and I trust him, thats all that matters. Derek

08-03-2007, 12:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
lostsalt One more push-up,Please! Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: where the missouri & kaw rivers meet Posts: 309	[quote=crazywolf;950407]Boozhoo niji, Who says that you have to live all the traditional ways, the cerimonies, etc, and not do email, cell phone and watch TV on your dish network? Who says that you have to have a 40 hour a week job and not be able to sweat in the lodge every other weekend? As far as your defination of traditionalism goes, it is dead. /QUOTE] As for who..... Well that is why I started the thread. Some people, I suppose .... do believe you have to get rid of the old before the new can begin. You may have missed the threads where it has been implied that to hang onto "traditional ways" is to be chained to your future destruction. Of course, alot of us believe that it (traditional values/lifeways) is an irreplaceable part of how we conduct ourselves. And is an elementary part of how we live our lives. IF you want to see the discussions check the threads called CONTEST POWWOWS and WHAT YOU WANT WHITES TO KNOW for starters __________________ "Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." JW

08-01-2007, 02:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
kiowakat Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St.Louis Posts: 1,243	I'm on ignore LMAO, but we all know what I think... hahahaha

08-03-2007, 07:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
Josiah PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oklahoma City Oklahoma USA Posts: 3,893 Blog Entries: 4	Alot of us have a Traditional background and at the same time have to get along in the modern world. Get a job make money and live. You are also correct I know of no one that can live totally traditional in a modern world. (beside those guys that move to Idaho) But, The values that make up Traditional ways The stories that were taught to us spoke of values and how to treat each other Those can apply to our every day life very easily As a halfbreed I catch it from both sides not ndn enough or white enough hahahaha As if there were a choice, I am who I am! And it is all how your are raised ENVIROMENT dictates your values! There are some fullbloods that know nothing and could care less about that part of them. As far as they are concerned they are Americans and Christians. And happy to just live and pay taxes I guess they have been Assimilated __________________

08-03-2007, 10:35 AM	#10 (permalink)
kiowakat Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St.Louis Posts: 1,243	yeah and they lived in a log cabin LMAO