Traditionalism vs. Assimulation/Pan-Indianism - Page 4

whitewave · 08-15-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthofAda

After reflecting on crazywolf's post about not having enough blood to vote, and whitewave's last post, it makes me think about the double-edged sword of Indian identity.

How do you make sure that Indian-ness lies in the hands of Indians (not made-up tribes that make you a member for a fee), yet not exclude those of true Indian heritage, but of lesser blood? This seems a key component in the evolution of Indian culture and the argument for Traditionalism vs. Pan-Indianism.

I don't know an easy answer for this

Also, I enjoyed Josiah's post about the way money that came to the Cherokee tribe was used to benefit the communities, rather than individual as per cap. The Chickasaw Nation has many tribally owned/operated businesses, not just including casinos. The profits from these entities have been used to fund programs to care for elders, provide healthcare and daycare for tribal members, create a home ownership/refinancing funding program for tribal members and tribal employees and for other programs that directly benefit the tribe as a whole. I kinda like that idea!

Exactly my thoughts.

Blackbear · 08-15-2007, 06:14 PM

Quote:

There was a small tribe on the East coast. The director of the Tribal organization received a call from a radio talk show host (the radio station served a predominantly Black audience and thus, the host was a Black man) and asked permission to visit the grounds. Arrangements were made and the talk show host visited at the appointed time, was shown the different programs that were being offered, daycare services for tribal members and the history of the said tribe. When it came time for the meeting to end, the visitor expressed his gratitude for being shown what was being offered for the Indigenous people of the area. He then proceeded in giving an anology of what his feeling were. Here's the analogy...

If you were to set a table and invite all the ethnic groups from around the country to bring their ethnic food in a basket, here's what you would see. When each group opened their baskets,the anglos would bring hot dogs and apple pie, the Chinese would bring their chow mein, the Mexicans would bring their tortillas and beans, the Italians would bring their spicy sausages, the Indigenous people of this land would pull out corn, rice and frybread...He used a few more examples, but by now you should see the pattern. His last example, and what probably hurt him the most, was when blacks opened their basket, they would pull out their hot dogs and apple pie. He stated that Black people in this country had been stripped of their culture and traditions during their enslavement and the generations born here only had the anglo values to uphold.

If moving forward means future generations pulling out hot dogs and apple pies, then for myself, I believe I'll stay where I am. And I wont put blame on the past, but I'll remember it.

It's up to each individual one of you to decide the path you choose for your children.

Exactly the message I was trying to get across in another thread at one point.

But the man did overlook much of what african americans DID create as a culture when all original tribal culture was lost. And no I'm not talking about voodoo/hoodoo even though yes that would be an example.. but even with accepting christianity as their faith, they did it with beauty in the way they worshipped, as opposed to say, the quakers at that time. They took the crap food given to them and came up with dishes that people will now pay top dollar for.. well you get my drift.
But african americans were not given the same choices we were and that to me is the saddest part of that man's revelations.

Wakopataki · 08-15-2007, 10:43 PM

I look at this way. You have those who choose to live a traditional life style as best they can, given what they have and can work with. They are usually found on the rez, for the most part. They should be honored for their service to their Nation, for perserving the ways of that Nation and their people. They should never be disrespected for that.

Then you have those who seek to live off the rez, who don't feel that, that is their calling, although proud of who they are. They take as much of their heritage as they want to preserve and pass that on to their children. Many of them feel that they have to assimilate, but not fully to give themselves and their family a chance of a better life or what they percieve as better.

Then you have others who choose to assimilate fully and only tell others, what they are, only when asked, and live White.

Then you have those who know they are NDN by what ever degree, but were not brought up by someone who ever taught them, what they are longing to know.

The first three are by individual choice and although the three would not agree with each other as to the best way to live, it is their choice.

The last group that longs for inclusion and understanding should be nurtured and taught. They should not be turned away because they weren't taught, having no choice as children.

I think that telling them to ask questions is right, but that doesn't mean that they know the right questions to ask.

One thing for sure is that they do not know the right or wrong questions, they don't know enough, to know cultural differences between Nations. They don't know anymore than the Whites that taught them. I have seen many times where they come and are turned away because they don't understand the words that are used and in turn use them in a way that appears to be disrespectful, to the very people they want to be close too. I don't mean the new age, people who want to create their own religion either. I'm talking about the sincere people who want to learn.
I also feel that the more NDN's that are taught the ways of their Nations, on and off the Rez, there is less danger of our ways disappearing.
In my oppinion, we all play an important part no matter where we are in life. Out of the above there is only one group that does nothing with their heritage.
If we didn't have those on the rez doing what they do, there would be many things lost.
If those off the rez weren't in place there would be nobody to remind White society that we exist on or off the rez and do contribute to both Nations. Theirs and ours.
Finally, if those who haven't been forunate enough to be taught, get taken under the wing of those who have, we could all be edified by their willingness and sincerity to learn!
We all have so much possibility to help our own and teach those that aren't.
I was in Target the other evening and a beautiful little blond girl, anounced loudly to her mother and sisters,"Look there's that NDN I told you about! She's right there!"
I want her and others to know that my braids, jewlery, and color of skin or eyes, are indicative of my race, yes, but there is so much more to know. I want them to know to look deeper, into our Culture, our love for one another, why we are of value and worth knowing and seeing. To hopefully and finally do away with the prejudice and stories that are common and believed. But if we weren't living off the rez, we would be invisible to yet another generation, who has no opportunity to see who and what we are.
Everybody that contributes to help their Nation on or off the rez, should be respected for the different, yet vital roles we all play and the different responsibilities that we hold to continue whats really important.

Wakopataki · 08-15-2007, 10:55 PM

Another thing, my son said about this, is that, you are what you see in the mirror. If you don't see an NDN, you won't live like one, have pride like one or want to help your own. You will live like the person in the mirror that you see.
When the face looking back see's the truth before them, they will live a life of honor and service to his or her people.

**NorthofAda** · 08-16-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakopataki

I look at this way. You have those who choose to live a traditional life style as best they can, given what they have and can work with. They are usually found on the rez, for the most part. They should be honored for their service to their Nation, for perserving the ways of that Nation and their people. They should never be disrespected for that.

Then you have those who seek to live off the rez, who don't feel that, that is their calling, although proud of who they are. They take as much of their heritage as they want to preserve and pass that on to their children. Many of them feel that they have to assimilate, but not fully to give themselves and their family a chance of a better life or what they percieve as better.

Then you have others who choose to assimilate fully and only tell others, what they are, only when asked, and live White.

Then you have those who know they are NDN by what ever degree, but were not brought up by someone who ever taught them, what they are longing to know.

The first three are by individual choice and although the three would not agree with each other as to the best way to live, it is their choice.

The last group that longs for inclusion and understanding should be nurtured and taught. They should not be turned away because they weren't taught, having no choice as children.

I think that telling them to ask questions is right, but that doesn't mean that they know the right questions to ask.

One thing for sure is that they do not know the right or wrong questions, they don't know enough, to know cultural differences between Nations. They don't know anymore than the Whites that taught them. I have seen many times where they come and are turned away because they don't understand the words that are used and in turn use them in a way that appears to be disrespectful, to the very people they want to be close too. I don't mean the new age, people who want to create their own religion either. I'm talking about the sincere people who want to learn.
I also feel that the more NDN's that are taught the ways of their Nations, on and off the Rez, there is less danger of our ways disappearing.
In my oppinion, we all play an important part no matter where we are in life. Out of the above there is only one group that does nothing with their heritage.
If we didn't have those on the rez doing what they do, there would be many things lost.
If those off the rez weren't in place there would be nobody to remind White society that we exist on or off the rez and do contribute to both Nations. Theirs and ours.
Finally, if those who haven't been forunate enough to be taught, get taken under the wing of those who have, we could all be edified by their willingness and sincerity to learn!
We all have so much possibility to help our own and teach those that aren't.
I was in Target the other evening and a beautiful little blond girl, anounced loudly to her mother and sisters,"Look there's that NDN I told you about! She's right there!"
I want her and others to know that my braids, jewlery, and color of skin or eyes, are indicative of my race, yes, but there is so much more to know. I want them to know to look deeper, into our Culture, our love for one another, why we are of value and worth knowing and seeing. To hopefully and finally do away with the prejudice and stories that are common and believed. But if we weren't living off the rez, we would be invisible to yet another generation, who has no opportunity to see who and what we are.
Everybody that contributes to help their Nation on or off the rez, should be respected for the different, yet vital roles we all play and the different responsibilities that we hold to continue whats really important.

WOW!!!

This is one of the best posts I've EVER read, anywhere, in any thread. You have truly hit many nails on the head here and spoken eloquently!

whitewave · 08-16-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakopataki

I look at this way. You have those who choose to live a traditional life style as best they can, given what they have and can work with. They are usually found on the rez, for the most part. They should be honored for their service to their Nation, for perserving the ways of that Nation and their people. They should never be disrespected for that.

Then you have those who seek to live off the rez, who don't feel that, that is their calling, although proud of who they are. They take as much of their heritage as they want to preserve and pass that on to their children. Many of them feel that they have to assimilate, but not fully to give themselves and their family a chance of a better life or what they percieve as better.

Then you have others who choose to assimilate fully and only tell others, what they are, only when asked, and live White.

Then you have those who know they are NDN by what ever degree, but were not brought up by someone who ever taught them, what they are longing to know.

The first three are by individual choice and although the three would not agree with each other as to the best way to live, it is their choice.

The last group that longs for inclusion and understanding should be nurtured and taught. They should not be turned away because they weren't taught, having no choice as children.

I think that telling them to ask questions is right, but that doesn't mean that they know the right questions to ask.

One thing for sure is that they do not know the right or wrong questions, they don't know enough, to know cultural differences between Nations. They don't know anymore than the Whites that taught them. I have seen many times where they come and are turned away because they don't understand the words that are used and in turn use them in a way that appears to be disrespectful, to the very people they want to be close too. I don't mean the new age, people who want to create their own religion either. I'm talking about the sincere people who want to learn.
I also feel that the more NDN's that are taught the ways of their Nations, on and off the Rez, there is less danger of our ways disappearing.
In my oppinion, we all play an important part no matter where we are in life. Out of the above there is only one group that does nothing with their heritage.
If we didn't have those on the rez doing what they do, there would be many things lost.
If those off the rez weren't in place there would be nobody to remind White society that we exist on or off the rez and do contribute to both Nations. Theirs and ours.
Finally, if those who haven't been forunate enough to be taught, get taken under the wing of those who have, we could all be edified by their willingness and sincerity to learn!
We all have so much possibility to help our own and teach those that aren't.
I was in Target the other evening and a beautiful little blond girl, anounced loudly to her mother and sisters,"Look there's that NDN I told you about! She's right there!"
I want her and others to know that my braids, jewlery, and color of skin or eyes, are indicative of my race, yes, but there is so much more to know. I want them to know to look deeper, into our Culture, our love for one another, why we are of value and worth knowing and seeing. To hopefully and finally do away with the prejudice and stories that are common and believed. But if we weren't living off the rez, we would be invisible to yet another generation, who has no opportunity to see who and what we are.
Everybody that contributes to help their Nation on or off the rez, should be respected for the different, yet vital roles we all play and the different responsibilities that we hold to continue whats really important.

Couldn't have said it better! Thank you.

Skillet · 08-17-2007, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitewave

I have to say, again I'm a lil torn. My blood quantum isn't the highest ever, but at the same time there are some crazy things happening out there that are scary by people without blood so it has to be considered I guess too.
I was lookin at more on that kaweah nation and I found this:

KC Indian Center Director Says Indians Will Be Saved By Wannabes

Word is making the rounds in the Indian communities of Missouri that a new onslaught is being mounted against them. This time it comes from part of the Indian community itself, Heart of America Indian Center in Kansas City, Missouri. The Center comes into suspect as being a genuine American Indian supporter by the very fact that it links to one of the worst organizations in existence that maligns American Indian histories and traditions - Manataka. Manataka is a New Age organization headquartered in Hot Springs, Arkansas, that pretends to be American Indian and believes that aliens built crystal power structures in caves that they blasted into the mountains surrounding the area. This is the least weird claim.The 35 year old executive director of the Heart of America Indian Center stresses that tribes are worthless relics of the past and that there never has been such a thing as tribal sovereignty. He views anyone who wishes to preserve their tribal culture and traditions as racist cultural police. Seeing tribal sovereignty as being genocidal, he welcomes wannabe tribes and wannabe ?Indians? as saviors to American Indian existence. In other words, plastic Indians and their non-profit corporate ?tribes? will fill in and take the place of real ones - thereby saving the American Indian.A 2003 Masters Graduate in Public Affairs from Parks University, a branch of the St. Louis University, he believes that Haskell is inferior to any other college in the nation. Graduates of Haskell, he has written, have a divisive mindset. This is apparently based on that Haskell promotes American Indian cultures and traditions. On the other hand, we do know that SLU has a watered American Indian studies program that conducts activities that are not exactly pro-Indian.The centers plan is to establish Indian Centers throughout Missouri to service the wannabe tribes, completely ignoring the damage they do through fabricated history and making up traditions. Part of the services will be to gain funding originally intended for legitimate American Indians and use it for the plastic Indians instead. Although resistance to this plan is starting in the St. Louis Indian community, other areas in the state will be wide open for this travesty. Unfortunately, this is not an isolated case where Indian centers have not performed in the best interest of their constituents. One example is the 2005 attempt by the ?Red Nation of the Cherokee? to take over the Mid-American All-Indian Center in Kansas City, Kansas, and rename it the Red Nation of the Cherokee Mid-America All Indian Center.
Fortunately, ?Chief Randy Two Bears Standing Tate? of the Red Nation of the Cherokee, failed in his takeover attempt. Whether or not the Executive Director of the Heart of America Indian Center fails or
succeeds in his plans is not as certain. It will depend on the
reactions and actions by legitimate American Indians in Missouri that are taken against this insult. Either way, the Heart of America Indian Center has lost all of its credibility.

WOW sounds like zekes "famous" now...

Blackbear · 08-17-2007, 03:34 PM

My gawd.. who wrote that article? It sounds like they really hate him and wasted no time pulling any punches!

lostsalt · 08-17-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbear

My gawd.. who wrote that article? It sounds like they really hate him and wasted no time pulling any punches!

I don't think it was published N E where. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was just posted in this thread.

WhoMe · 08-17-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skillet

being on the computer ONLY makes you non traditional by zekes definitions,not by anyone elses unless its your own personal definition as well.
out of curiosity, do you vote in your tribal elections as well as non-tribal ones?
and LOL @ pizza pan indian

Skil,

I used to vote in my tribal elections but quit for the following reasons:

1. As an absentee voter, I have to request an absentee ballot 6 weeks in advance.

2. Every tribal election in recent history seems to not be valid and subject to recall.

3. Our tribal chairman makes as much as a high school janitor and the rest of the elected business council doesn't get paid at all.

Why would I want to subject anyone to this?

How about you. Do you vote in local, state, national and tribal elections?

08-17-2007, 03:34 PM	#68 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,621	My gawd.. who wrote that article? It sounds like they really hate him and wasted no time pulling any punches! __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

08-15-2007, 10:43 PM	#63 (permalink)
Wakopataki Junior Dancer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 150	I look at this way. You have those who choose to live a traditional life style as best they can, given what they have and can work with. They are usually found on the rez, for the most part. They should be honored for their service to their Nation, for perserving the ways of that Nation and their people. They should never be disrespected for that. Then you have those who seek to live off the rez, who don't feel that, that is their calling, although proud of who they are. They take as much of their heritage as they want to preserve and pass that on to their children. Many of them feel that they have to assimilate, but not fully to give themselves and their family a chance of a better life or what they percieve as better. Then you have others who choose to assimilate fully and only tell others, what they are, only when asked, and live White. Then you have those who know they are NDN by what ever degree, but were not brought up by someone who ever taught them, what they are longing to know. The first three are by individual choice and although the three would not agree with each other as to the best way to live, it is their choice. The last group that longs for inclusion and understanding should be nurtured and taught. They should not be turned away because they weren't taught, having no choice as children. I think that telling them to ask questions is right, but that doesn't mean that they know the right questions to ask. One thing for sure is that they do not know the right or wrong questions, they don't know enough, to know cultural differences between Nations. They don't know anymore than the Whites that taught them. I have seen many times where they come and are turned away because they don't understand the words that are used and in turn use them in a way that appears to be disrespectful, to the very people they want to be close too. I don't mean the new age, people who want to create their own religion either. I'm talking about the sincere people who want to learn. I also feel that the more NDN's that are taught the ways of their Nations, on and off the Rez, there is less danger of our ways disappearing. In my oppinion, we all play an important part no matter where we are in life. Out of the above there is only one group that does nothing with their heritage. If we didn't have those on the rez doing what they do, there would be many things lost. If those off the rez weren't in place there would be nobody to remind White society that we exist on or off the rez and do contribute to both Nations. Theirs and ours. Finally, if those who haven't been forunate enough to be taught, get taken under the wing of those who have, we could all be edified by their willingness and sincerity to learn! We all have so much possibility to help our own and teach those that aren't. I was in Target the other evening and a beautiful little blond girl, anounced loudly to her mother and sisters,"Look there's that NDN I told you about! She's right there!" I want her and others to know that my braids, jewlery, and color of skin or eyes, are indicative of my race, yes, but there is so much more to know. I want them to know to look deeper, into our Culture, our love for one another, why we are of value and worth knowing and seeing. To hopefully and finally do away with the prejudice and stories that are common and believed. But if we weren't living off the rez, we would be invisible to yet another generation, who has no opportunity to see who and what we are. Everybody that contributes to help their Nation on or off the rez, should be respected for the different, yet vital roles we all play and the different responsibilities that we hold to continue whats really important.

08-15-2007, 10:55 PM	#64 (permalink)
Wakopataki Junior Dancer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Washington Posts: 150	Another thing, my son said about this, is that, you are what you see in the mirror. If you don't see an NDN, you won't live like one, have pride like one or want to help your own. You will live like the person in the mirror that you see. When the face looking back see's the truth before them, they will live a life of honor and service to his or her people.

08-17-2007, 06:37 PM	#71 (permalink)
Zeke Self-Righteous Injun Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 532