When Are They Going To Give Up!?!?!?!

**Jibby™** · 05-25-2005, 06:25 PM

Damn. It's bad enough when the Establishment accuses skins of crossing over the alleged Bering Strait and populating the America's . To add insult to injury - now they're saying that they've proved ... well, just spy it for yourselves.

Go to discoverychannel.ca and peep the upcoming TV program "First Canadians".

Tell me what you think ...

**Joe G** · 05-25-2005, 09:31 PM

Bizzare! with a video even! This is wierd...and sadly, will probably be accepted in scientific circles...since then, it would be a short step to completely dis-enfranchising NDNS...(worse than it already is) and rewriting history to favor (more so than it already does!!) European superiority claims, then painting NDNs as the aggressors!
I can see it now..the nice Euros were sitting around communing with nature and blowing bubbles...peacefully minding their own business, and were invaded by NDN cultures!
This is really scary...since it basically proves once and for all the science can be used to 'prove' anything...and isn't as objective as most have been led to believe.

Blackbear · 05-25-2005, 10:06 PM

You know... I've come to the conclusion that even if their theories prove correct... we were still here FIRST so screw them ROFLMAO

DeusExMachina · 05-26-2005, 02:29 AM

okay. i have just one thing to say to these pink savages that fancy themselves as intellectuals: Go the f*ck home, and take your psuedo-science and idiotic conjecture with you. you can really prove nothing, so you sit around and think up really asenine theories, all of which are racist and self-serving. that is not science. and trying to call it science is blasphemy.

**injunboy** · 05-26-2005, 11:07 AM

hey jibby, the discovery channel over here hasnt mentioned anything on this subject, soo umm *i think you need to move to az*...lol

WhoMe · 05-26-2005, 01:23 PM

Jibbs,

I have just written and sent my response to Discovery Canada. I encourage everybody else to do the same by emailing: comments@discovery.ca

__

Dear Sir,

I am a moderator on the popular Native website powwows.com. It was recently brought to our attention that your production "First Canadians" scheduled to aire on June 26 contains views about First Nations People that is contradictory to what First Nations People believe. First Nations People have creation beliefs that "do not originate on another continent."

It is a strong dislike among North American Natives that nonIndian researchers (scholars, historians, ethnologists, archeologists and anthropologists) determine public perception of First Nations/American Indian culture. Would Discovery Canada be willing to do a project on First Nations people and have respected individuals from the Native community speak about their own cultures and creation beliefs - in the first person?

Isn't it about time First Nations/American Indians are seen on the Discovery Channel telling their own stories of who they are - in the first person? Maybe your viewing audience may "discover" that there is another version to how history is told.

Blackbear · 05-26-2005, 05:24 PM

************************************************** ******
This Message Is Reprinted Under The Fair Use
Doctrine of International Copyright Law:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html
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FROM: THE CONCORD MONITOR ONLINE NEWSPAPER

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/p...4/REPOSITORY/5
05240351/1013/NEWS03

Study: Ice Age Nomads Were First North Americans

Scientists: As few as 70 came from Siberia

By ROBERT LEE HOTZ
Los Angeles Times

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
May 24. 2005 8:00AM

The founding fathers of North America numbered as few as 70 intrepid Ice Age
nomads who first migrated from Siberia, according to a new genetic analysis
made public yesterday.

Population geneticist Jody Hey at Rutgers University in New Jersey calculated
that the first wave of American immigrants was a trickle - perhaps a single
small tribe that struck out on its own from an ancestral population in Asia
numbering no more than 9,000 people.

"A tiny fraction went to the New World,"Hey said.

The study of the founding human population of North America - the most
comprehensive to date - was published Monday in PLoS Biology, an online journal of
the Public Library of Science.

"The small number is surprising to me,"said anthropologist Joanna L. Mountain
at Stanford University. "We may be looking at the winners here. It is quite
likely that other groups came over and did not survive."

If the original settlers were so few, "that would be quite striking," said
Theodore Schurr at the University of Pennsylvania's Laboratory of Molecular
Anthropology. "It would have a lot of biological and medical implications."
Long frustrated by the paucity of direct archeological evidence, researchers
in recent years have searched for any biochemical traces of the early
pathfinders that may still survive in the cells of their descendants hundreds of
generations later.

Using the tools of molecular biology and population genetics, experts have
learned to reconstruct ancient migrations by tracking the movements of tell-tale
genes in geographic patterns. They also can estimate the timing of population
movements by calculating the steady mutation rate of key genes.

Hey calculated the pattern of inheritance of nine different genes among
contemporary Asian and Native American peoples with a set of computer simulations.

"Every individual gene has its own history," Hey said. "If you use only one,
then you have a good chance of being quite wrong about the history of the
population."

By Hey's calculations, the wanderers reached North America some time between
7,000 and 14,000 years ago, more recently than archeological evidence that
shows humans may have been in the Americas for about 15,000 years, several
experts said.

Hey focused on only one of the three major language groups in North America
-the Amerind speakers - who are believed to represent the earliest people who
ventured across an ancient land bridge from Siberia into Alaska and then deep
into the continent.

The number of these first immigrants whose genes have survived into the
present was about 70, Hey said. Counting all adults, however, including those who
did not survive long enough to start families, "we might be talking as many as
a couple of hundred individuals."

"It is clear that Native Americans don't have as much genetic variation as
Asians,"Hey said. "There was definitely a bottleneck of some sort."

------ End of article

By ROBERT LEE HOTZ

Los Angeles Times

Blackbear · 05-26-2005, 05:24 PM

************************************************** ******
This Message Is Reprinted Under The Fair Use
Doctrine of International Copyright Law:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html
************************************************** ******

FROM: CBC NEWS ONLINE

http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/nati...ate050524.html

First North Americans Few In Number

Last Updated Wed, 25 May 2005 09:55:56 EDT
CBC News

NEW BRUNSWICK, N.J. - The first humans to cross the Bering Strait land bridge
and colonize North America thousands of years ago were part of a group that
numbered about 200 people, new research shows.

"It's based on a tribal unit, which most people considered sensible,"
researcher Jody Hey told CBC News Online.

The land bridge between present-day Siberia and Alaska is now submerged under
the Bering Strait.

But thousand of years ago, mammals - including humans, perhaps on the hunt
following animals - would have used it to cross between the continents.

The land bridge was grassland even during ice ages, fossil records show.

FROM JUNE 4, 2003: Tiny plants sustained ice age herds: Canadian study

Hey, a genetics professor at Rutgers University in New Jersey, compared the
gene sequences of modern day native Americans and northeastern Asians in order
to find differences in their histories.

He fed these patterns into a mathematical model that he devised to determine
population separation: when the Asians left for America and if they moved back
and forth.

He found that the number of people of childbearing age in the first wave
numbered about 80, and that they would be part of a larger clan that migrated
across the land bridge.

"The main new things about my paper is the method and the number," Hey said.
"There really hasn't been that kind of estimate before."

FROM OCT. 20, 2001: New Ideas About the New World

Hey downplayed his model's estimated crossing date, 8,000 years ago, saying
the archeological evidence of 14,000 years ago was likely more reliable.

"I found some evidence of people moving back and forth, but it's not very
strong, so that question is somewhat unresolved," Hey said.

Hey said he hoped the study, published on Tuesday by the journal Public
Library of Science, would influence anthropologists and geneticists to use his
model to study other population movements, such as when man moved out of Africa or
founded Japan.

Blackbear · 05-26-2005, 05:27 PM

I wonder.. how in the world they do this genetic testing to say anything about native americans.. I don't remember any kind of genetic testing campaign going to the reservations and asking people for a swab of their mouth or blood samples... so I have to wonder who and how many were tested... or if they were not, how did they get the samples?????????

**little wolf** · 05-26-2005, 06:36 PM

All I have to say to these people is

**AngelFeather** · 05-26-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbear

I wonder.. how in the world they do this genetic testing to say anything about native americans.. I don't remember any kind of genetic testing campaign going to the reservations and asking people for a swab of their mouth or blood samples... so I have to wonder who and how many were tested... or if they were not, how did they get the samples?????????

I was looking fer that article to post too. yeah i was umm speechless to that and was like umm they call themselves scientists??.. its almost like they tryin to disprove that NAtive people were original Dwellers of the North Americas so they can get out of whatever promises they made. ONLY 70 original Native Americans HUH??? LMAO well to that if it were true... i say that we HAVE proven the strength of Native people to survive that long and to grow as large in numbers as we did.. or are they tryin to say we are ALL part Asian??? LMAO...Gwaaa its just stupid!!!!

Gache · 05-31-2005, 06:28 PM

Hey all those arabs are only descended from Ishmael and whoever he married. That was only 4000 years ago. Its obvious they only tested the amerind group which is only one language family they tested.
Pretty stupid science actually. According to spanish documents indians displayed a wide variety of eye color and skin color.

05-25-2005, 06:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jibby™ NDNBUNZ Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: BABYLON HATE MACHINE Posts: 2,094	When Are They Going To Give Up!?!?!?! Damn. It's bad enough when the Establishment accuses skins of crossing over the alleged Bering Strait and populating the America's . To add insult to injury - now they're saying that they've proved ... well, just spy it for yourselves. Go to discoverychannel.ca and peep the upcoming TV program "First Canadians". Tell me what you think ... __________________ Got percap?

05-25-2005, 10:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,622	You know... I've come to the conclusion that even if their theories prove correct... we were still here FIRST so screw them ROFLMAO __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

05-26-2005, 02:29 AM	#4 (permalink)
DeusExMachina Divine Scientific Genius Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: In yr house, clogging yr toiletz Posts: 805	okay. i have just one thing to say to these pink savages that fancy themselves as intellectuals: Go the f*ck home, and take your psuedo-science and idiotic conjecture with you. you can really prove nothing, so you sit around and think up really asenine theories, all of which are racist and self-serving. that is not science. and trying to call it science is blasphemy. __________________ Mad Scientists Union Local 42 Evil Geniuses For a Better Tomorrow The secret of my succes is 30% natural talent, 10% inspiration, and the remaining 60% is just the fact that I am nucking futs.

05-26-2005, 11:07 AM	#5 (permalink)
injunboy Ganado 3A North Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: nizhoni arizoni Posts: 1,650	hey jibby, the discovery channel over here hasnt mentioned anything on this subject, soo umm i think you need to move to az...lol __________________ thanks dad for showing me the way, teaching me the language, and not leaving my mother...L *original XXL * jus like McSteamie

05-26-2005, 01:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,560	Jibbs, I have just written and sent my response to Discovery Canada. I encourage everybody else to do the same by emailing: comments@discovery.ca __ Dear Sir, I am a moderator on the popular Native website powwows.com. It was recently brought to our attention that your production "First Canadians" scheduled to aire on June 26 contains views about First Nations People that is contradictory to what First Nations People believe. First Nations People have creation beliefs that "do not originate on another continent." It is a strong dislike among North American Natives that nonIndian researchers (scholars, historians, ethnologists, archeologists and anthropologists) determine public perception of First Nations/American Indian culture. Would Discovery Canada be willing to do a project on First Nations people and have respected individuals from the Native community speak about their own cultures and creation beliefs - in the first person? Isn't it about time First Nations/American Indians are seen on the Discovery Channel telling their own stories of who they are - in the first person? Maybe your viewing audience may "discover" that there is another version to how history is told. __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

05-25-2005, 09:31 PM	#2 (permalink)
Joe G ~the REAL me~ Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 8,958	Bizzare! with a video even! This is wierd...and sadly, will probably be accepted in scientific circles...since then, it would be a short step to completely dis-enfranchising NDNS...(worse than it already is) and rewriting history to favor (more so than it already does!!) European superiority claims, then painting NDNs as the aggressors! I can see it now..the nice Euros were sitting around communing with nature and blowing bubbles...peacefully minding their own business, and were invaded by NDN cultures! This is really scary...since it basically proves once and for all the science can be used to 'prove' anything...and isn't as objective as most have been led to believe.

05-26-2005, 05:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,622	************************************************ ** This Message Is Reprinted Under The Fair Use Doctrine of International Copyright Law: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html ********************************************** **** FROM: THE CONCORD MONITOR ONLINE NEWSPAPER http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/p...4/REPOSITORY/5 05240351/1013/NEWS03 Study: Ice Age Nomads Were First North Americans Scientists: As few as 70 came from Siberia By ROBERT LEE HOTZ Los Angeles Times ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- May 24. 2005 8:00AM The founding fathers of North America numbered as few as 70 intrepid Ice Age nomads who first migrated from Siberia, according to a new genetic analysis made public yesterday. Population geneticist Jody Hey at Rutgers University in New Jersey calculated that the first wave of American immigrants was a trickle - perhaps a single small tribe that struck out on its own from an ancestral population in Asia numbering no more than 9,000 people. "A tiny fraction went to the New World,"Hey said. The study of the founding human population of North America - the most comprehensive to date - was published Monday in PLoS Biology, an online journal of the Public Library of Science. "The small number is surprising to me,"said anthropologist Joanna L. Mountain at Stanford University. "We may be looking at the winners here. It is quite likely that other groups came over and did not survive." If the original settlers were so few, "that would be quite striking," said Theodore Schurr at the University of Pennsylvania's Laboratory of Molecular Anthropology. "It would have a lot of biological and medical implications." Long frustrated by the paucity of direct archeological evidence, researchers in recent years have searched for any biochemical traces of the early pathfinders that may still survive in the cells of their descendants hundreds of generations later. Using the tools of molecular biology and population genetics, experts have learned to reconstruct ancient migrations by tracking the movements of tell-tale genes in geographic patterns. They also can estimate the timing of population movements by calculating the steady mutation rate of key genes. Hey calculated the pattern of inheritance of nine different genes among contemporary Asian and Native American peoples with a set of computer simulations. "Every individual gene has its own history," Hey said. "If you use only one, then you have a good chance of being quite wrong about the history of the population." By Hey's calculations, the wanderers reached North America some time between 7,000 and 14,000 years ago, more recently than archeological evidence that shows humans may have been in the Americas for about 15,000 years, several experts said. Hey focused on only one of the three major language groups in North America -the Amerind speakers - who are believed to represent the earliest people who ventured across an ancient land bridge from Siberia into Alaska and then deep into the continent. The number of these first immigrants whose genes have survived into the present was about 70, Hey said. Counting all adults, however, including those who did not survive long enough to start families, "we might be talking as many as a couple of hundred individuals." "It is clear that Native Americans don't have as much genetic variation as Asians,"Hey said. "There was definitely a bottleneck of some sort." ------ End of article By ROBERT LEE HOTZ Los Angeles Times __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

05-26-2005, 05:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,622	************************************************ ** This Message Is Reprinted Under The Fair Use Doctrine of International Copyright Law: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html ********************************************** **** FROM: CBC NEWS ONLINE http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/nati...ate050524.html First North Americans Few In Number Last Updated Wed, 25 May 2005 09:55:56 EDT CBC News NEW BRUNSWICK, N.J. - The first humans to cross the Bering Strait land bridge and colonize North America thousands of years ago were part of a group that numbered about 200 people, new research shows. "It's based on a tribal unit, which most people considered sensible," researcher Jody Hey told CBC News Online. The land bridge between present-day Siberia and Alaska is now submerged under the Bering Strait. But thousand of years ago, mammals - including humans, perhaps on the hunt following animals - would have used it to cross between the continents. The land bridge was grassland even during ice ages, fossil records show. FROM JUNE 4, 2003: Tiny plants sustained ice age herds: Canadian study Hey, a genetics professor at Rutgers University in New Jersey, compared the gene sequences of modern day native Americans and northeastern Asians in order to find differences in their histories. He fed these patterns into a mathematical model that he devised to determine population separation: when the Asians left for America and if they moved back and forth. He found that the number of people of childbearing age in the first wave numbered about 80, and that they would be part of a larger clan that migrated across the land bridge. "The main new things about my paper is the method and the number," Hey said. "There really hasn't been that kind of estimate before." FROM OCT. 20, 2001: New Ideas About the New World Hey downplayed his model's estimated crossing date, 8,000 years ago, saying the archeological evidence of 14,000 years ago was likely more reliable. "I found some evidence of people moving back and forth, but it's not very strong, so that question is somewhat unresolved," Hey said. Hey said he hoped the study, published on Tuesday by the journal Public Library of Science, would influence anthropologists and geneticists to use his model to study other population movements, such as when man moved out of Africa or founded Japan. __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

05-26-2005, 05:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
Blackbear Space Cowboy Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,622	I wonder.. how in the world they do this genetic testing to say anything about native americans.. I don't remember any kind of genetic testing campaign going to the reservations and asking people for a swab of their mouth or blood samples... so I have to wonder who and how many were tested... or if they were not, how did they get the samples????????? __________________ Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.

05-26-2005, 06:36 PM	#10 (permalink)
little wolf KB Supporter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Social Circle, Georgia Posts: 2,108	All I have to say to these people is __________________

05-31-2005, 06:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
Gache Quality Taco Inspector Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: PA Posts: 555	Hey all those arabs are only descended from Ishmael and whoever he married. That was only 4000 years ago. Its obvious they only tested the amerind group which is only one language family they tested. Pretty stupid science actually. According to spanish documents indians displayed a wide variety of eye color and skin color. __________________

05-31-2005, 06:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
middle of the sky M...O...T...to the S! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: westcoast Posts: 18,947