The mascot debate.....

tsalagigirl · 05-16-2005, 02:33 PM

It's about

time

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...ans-ncaa_x.htm

NCAA ponders future of Indian nicknames

By Steve Wieberg, USA TODAY
Mon May 16, 8:03 AM ET

After wrestling with the politically delicate issue for more than four years, the NCAA may be close to rendering a verdict on the use of Native American mascots and nicknames - from Indians and Braves to Redmen and Savages - by 30 of its member universities.

The governing body will conduct the first in a series of summer meetings next month and could decide by August whether it can and should impose a ban on Indian imagery, which critics charge is demeaning and even racist.

Ultimate responsibility falls to the NCAA's highest body, the 17-member Executive Committee, which meets in early August.

Whether the association will or legally must continue to yield to individual campus discretion - as the NCAA does on such matters as minority hiring - is uncertain. Targets range from Florida State (Seminoles) and Utah (Utes) to lower-division institutions with particularly provocative nicknames: Southeastern Oklahoma (Savages) and Carthage, Wis. (Redmen).

"What we can do is educate, get the information out there to you," says Southwestern Athletic Conference Commissioner Robert Vowels, who heads the Minority Interests and Opportunities Committee. "I can't sit here and say right now that we can enforce something or establish a penalty structure."

One possibility, says the NCAA's Corey Jackson, who works closely with the committee, is a lever the association has applied to the issue of flying the Confederate flag or incorporating in their state flags. Two states that do, South Carolina and Mississippi, are barred from hosting association championships.

The NCAA's attention to the mascot issue grew out of the flag flap four years ago.

This isn't the first time the NCAA has undertaken a review of such nicknames. In 2002, the minority interests committee called for "this tradition to be retired." Those schools say the use of the nicknames is in many case a tradition intended to honor Native Americans and their culture.

Smokin' Ace · 05-16-2005, 03:41 PM

Here's another story in the news today...

http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/008172.asp?print=1

tsalagigirl · 05-16-2005, 04:32 PM

i just luuv their explanations of

Quote:

...they honor Native people or that they have permission from area tribes.

that is such a load of

**Wojapi4Me** · 05-16-2005, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsalagigirl

i just luuv their explanations of

that is such a load of

Before you condemn, there are a few tribes who have given their blessing. One that comes to mind is the Seminole Tribe of Florida who fully supports the Florida State Seminoles.

"We are proud to be Seminoles, and we are proud of the Florida State University Seminoles. We are all winners."

-- James E. Billie, former Chairman of the Seminole Tribe of Florida. October 2000

tsalagigirl · 05-16-2005, 07:10 PM

Quote:

"We are proud to be Seminoles, and we are proud of the Florida State University Seminoles. We are all winners."

It's not schools like that that I have a problem with. FSU uses the Seminole name in a respectful way. It is the schools like the University of Illinois with their Chief Illinwek mascot that is wrong.

http://www.aistm.org/1indexpage.htm

Privateer6 · 05-16-2005, 09:00 PM

Smokin' Ace probably knows more about UNC Pembroke than me since I just moved to NC, but UNCP is fighting to keep it's mascot, the Braves, because the school can trace its roots to the "normalcy school" for Natives. The largest minority is Native Americans, I think the are actually thre majority of the student pop. but don't quote me on that, and they want to keep their mascot.
this site has their mascot.
http://www.uncp.edu/athletics/news/0...l_approval.htm

**Wojapi4Me** · 05-17-2005, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsalagigirl

It's not schools like that that I have a problem with. FSU uses the Seminole name in a respectful way. It is the schools like the University of Illinois with their Chief Illinwek mascot that is wrong.

http://www.aistm.org/1indexpage.htm

I disagree wholeheartedly. If the Chief Illiniwek mascot is wrong, then you must agree that the Seminoles mascot is wrong because they wear almost identical dress. The FSU guy doesn't dress like a Seminole. He wears a headdress, rides a horse, and sticks a spear in the ground. How is that any different than the Illinois mascot? Just curious.

As far as the Braves are concerned. I have always asked the question of why it's ok for Indian schools to have Braves as a mascot, but it's tantamount to murder for the Atlanta baseball team to have the same mascot. The answer always comes back, "Well, it's because it's Indian kids." So? If it's offensive for one, if would be offensive for all. That's like saying it would be wrong for Green Bay to rename it's team the Green Bay Niggers, but it would be ok for a predominantly black school to have the same name. Doesn't make sense.

**~pathwalker~** · 05-17-2005, 09:59 AM

The only thing that offends me about the braves (fans) is when they do the hachet hand thing. Anyone know what I am talkin about?

Smokin' Ace · 05-17-2005, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJJudd

Smokin' Ace probably knows more about UNC Pembroke than me since I just moved to NC, but UNCP is fighting to keep it's mascot, the Braves, because the school can trace its roots to the "normalcy school" for Natives. The largest minority is Native Americans, I think the are actually thre majority of the student pop. but don't quote me on that, and they want to keep their mascot.
this site has their mascot.
http://www.uncp.edu/athletics/news/0...l_approval.htm

Yeah - the majority of the people who voted did want to keep the Braves name because of the origin of this school - and this is smack dab in the middle of Lumbee county....a majority Native community...I can not say that all folks agree with that, but I do understand them wanting to keep it. We do not have a per say BRAVE that goes around and hoops and hollars - actually - we have a tommy hawk *yes it is a bird named Tommy....so even tho Braves is the school nickname - Tommy Hawk is the one who represents.

I am sure there are others who can articulate this info more than me....but just so you know a bit about the name game at UNCP.

This thread is posted in Pow-wow talk too - and there is interesting dialogue going on in there as well.

In this situation, my personal opinion, I want something to be kept intact to remind all folks of the origins of the school - there may be a happy medium somewhere - so I guess we will all see. This school has grown sooooo much - just since I have been here - the curriculum has grown - more staff and more subjects - and def more students - many who learn about our heritage for the first time just by coming to school here. Will that change if we changed the Braves name? Possibly - but it is in the forefront letting all know that there is room to discuss something they may not thought about before...

Anyways - just my .02 cents - an again - I am not speaking for everyone at the school - just responding to GJUDD's comment....

tsalagigirl · 05-18-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

I disagree wholeheartedly. If the Chief Illiniwek mascot is wrong, then you must agree that the Seminoles mascot is wrong because they wear almost identical dress. The FSU guy doesn't dress like a Seminole. He wears a headdress, rides a horse, and sticks a spear in the ground. How is that any different than the Illinois mascot? Just curious.

That's fine. I respect the fact that you disagree. But I still hold my own opinion. To me, there is a difference in using an ndn name in a respectful way and portraying us in a way similar to a cartoon spoof. I know that some schools actually have a history tied to the mascot because it is their own ancestry there and the majority of the population are descendants. That is an example of the mascot portrayed in a respectful way. But how many almost all-white schools are doing that? Even though a lot of people there might have ndn blood somewhere back there, they are happy to forget all about it because they don't "look" like it.

I just don't see how being looked upon as a buffoon is honorable. How does that help the native image?

Perspective. I guess it is mostly about individual perspective. I don't think that the people chanting to the antics of the "indian" mascot are taking into account accurate historical portrayal.

To me it just seems like it can lead to portraying us as less than human. When a people is portrayed in that way, it makes it easier for them to disrespect the people.

That is my personal opinion. You can disagree with it all you want, but it is my opinion. I am allowed my opinion just as you are yours. We might just have to agree to disagree on this issue. I do not hold the opinion that everything and everyone must be the same or think the same.

As far as the "n" word that you mentioned. I feel that it is not right for me to say it, which is why I won't repeat it here. However, I do understand how in very small and private circles it is acceptable to use amongst each other- because they know where each other is coming from when they are close like that, but you can bet on if a complete white stranger walked up to a black person and said the "n" word, a serious fight would be on without delay. But I will never use that word myself. Once again, I feel it is disrespectful and I will not aid in that. I just don't feel that it is OK to just broadly disrespect people of ANY skin color like that. Not ever.

Personally, I only hate people on a strictly case-by-case basis. LOL

**Joe's Dad** · 05-18-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin' Ace

Yeah - the majority of the people who voted did want to keep the Braves name because of the origin of this school - and this is smack dab in the middle of Lumbee county....a majority Native community...I can not say that all folks agree with that, but I do understand them wanting to keep it. We do not have a per say BRAVE that goes around and hoops and hollars - actually - we have a tommy hawk *yes it is a bird named Tommy....so even tho Braves is the school nickname - Tommy Hawk is the one who represents.

I am sure there are others who can articulate this info more than me....but just so you know a bit about the name game at UNCP.

This thread is posted in Pow-wow talk too - and there is interesting dialogue going on in there as well.

In this situation, my personal opinion, I want something to be kept intact to remind all folks of the origins of the school - there may be a happy medium somewhere - so I guess we will all see. This school has grown sooooo much - just since I have been here - the curriculum has grown - more staff and more subjects - and def more students - many who learn about our heritage for the first time just by coming to school here. Will that change if we changed the Braves name? Possibly - but it is in the forefront letting all know that there is room to discuss something they may not thought about before...

Anyways - just my .02 cents - an again - I am not speaking for everyone at the school - just responding to GJUDD's comment....

Good ole 'Pembroke State University'!!!

(or is it 'Pembrook?!)LOL

tsalagigirl · 05-18-2005, 01:38 AM

It's Pembroke. And I have no doubt that they are proud of their history. Even the University's home page features a girl in her regalia dancing.

http://www.uncp.edu/

That is ndn pride and ndn power there.

Hey! Wait!!.....Come back! .....I know you are ready to click just because I said there's a girl in regalia! Get back here! And give me back my frybread!!

05-16-2005, 02:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
tsalagigirl Teen Dancer Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 481	The mascot debate..... It's about time http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colle...ans-ncaa_x.htm NCAA ponders future of Indian nicknames By Steve Wieberg, USA TODAY Mon May 16, 8:03 AM ET After wrestling with the politically delicate issue for more than four years, the NCAA may be close to rendering a verdict on the use of Native American mascots and nicknames - from Indians and Braves to Redmen and Savages - by 30 of its member universities. The governing body will conduct the first in a series of summer meetings next month and could decide by August whether it can and should impose a ban on Indian imagery, which critics charge is demeaning and even racist. Ultimate responsibility falls to the NCAA's highest body, the 17-member Executive Committee, which meets in early August. Whether the association will or legally must continue to yield to individual campus discretion - as the NCAA does on such matters as minority hiring - is uncertain. Targets range from Florida State (Seminoles) and Utah (Utes) to lower-division institutions with particularly provocative nicknames: Southeastern Oklahoma (Savages) and Carthage, Wis. (Redmen). "What we can do is educate, get the information out there to you," says Southwestern Athletic Conference Commissioner Robert Vowels, who heads the Minority Interests and Opportunities Committee. "I can't sit here and say right now that we can enforce something or establish a penalty structure." One possibility, says the NCAA's Corey Jackson, who works closely with the committee, is a lever the association has applied to the issue of flying the Confederate flag or incorporating in their state flags. Two states that do, South Carolina and Mississippi, are barred from hosting association championships. The NCAA's attention to the mascot issue grew out of the flag flap four years ago. This isn't the first time the NCAA has undertaken a review of such nicknames. In 2002, the minority interests committee called for "this tradition to be retired." Those schools say the use of the nicknames is in many case a tradition intended to honor Native Americans and their culture.

05-16-2005, 03:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Smokin' Ace Arena Director Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: United States Posts: 4,112	Here's another story in the news today... http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/008172.asp?print=1 __________________ Everything is gonna be alright! Be blessed - got love??? This b me..... www.myspace.com/akayo

05-17-2005, 09:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
~pathwalker~ PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In front of my puter...in VA. Posts: 18,051	The only thing that offends me about the braves (fans) is when they do the hachet hand thing. Anyone know what I am talkin about? __________________ 90% Angel 10% Lil Devil

05-18-2005, 01:38 AM	#12 (permalink)
tsalagigirl Teen Dancer Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 481	It's Pembroke. And I have no doubt that they are proud of their history. Even the University's home page features a girl in her regalia dancing. http://www.uncp.edu/ That is ndn pride and ndn power there. Hey! Wait!!.....Come back! .....I know you are ready to click just because I said there's a girl in regalia! Get back here! And give me back my frybread!! Last edited by tsalagigirl; 05-18-2005 at 01:45 AM.

05-16-2005, 09:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
Privateer6 Like my new toy? Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cylon occupied North Carolina Posts: 775	Smokin' Ace probably knows more about UNC Pembroke than me since I just moved to NC, but UNCP is fighting to keep it's mascot, the Braves, because the school can trace its roots to the "normalcy school" for Natives. The largest minority is Native Americans, I think the are actually thre majority of the student pop. but don't quote me on that, and they want to keep their mascot. this site has their mascot. http://www.uncp.edu/athletics/news/0...l_approval.htm

05-18-2005, 02:04 AM	#13 (permalink)
Joe's Dad Shhh...I'm watching TV Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: I'm right here! Posts: 8,658