Gay Indians?

WhoMe · 01-08-2004, 04:55 PM

___

Back in high school, being gay was considered something bad. Gay people were singled out, rediculed and sometimes even battered.

Then in college, gay people were more open and even had their own campus organizations.

Some tribes believe gays are "holy" or "touched by the spirit."

I have seen several people cross dress at different powwows because they are gay. Still others who are gay dance in their own gender clothing.

What's your take on this?

Should gay people be allowed to participate in the dance arena?

**tradish_wiyan** · 01-08-2004, 05:23 PM

Historically, gay people were very respected because they lived in both "worlds" so to speak. Society is more "acceptable" to gays now than in years past.

It don't bother me to see gays dancing...long as they are not making out in public...eeww

Some things should stay behind closed doors, or in tipi's LOL

**Dancin by the bay** · 01-08-2004, 07:11 PM

I was raised to respect all people. Regardless of their race, sexual choice or any difference. It's a strong person who can over look other people differences and still accept them as human beings with views and lives different then our own.

:mrking:
I can't believe some of the prejudice that goes on.

01-08-2004, 08:43 PM

I don't see why not! We are all one with the creator:)

**Crow_hunny_420** · 01-09-2004, 04:03 PM

ditto what they said took tha word right outta my mouf

**billyjoejimbob** · 01-09-2004, 04:27 PM

Doesnt bother me.

I heard that alot of dancers are. 1 friend who knows people in an area (names and areas withheld) says that many of the dancers with really nice stuff are gay. (Not that everyone with nice stuff is gay.) He knew alot of them and it was a fact.

WhoMe · 01-09-2004, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tradish_wiyan
It don't bother me to see gays dancing...long as they are not making out in public...eeww
Some things should stay behind closed doors, or in tipi's LOL

Dang tradish,

That's TMI (too much information).

I think it is disrespectful to see anyone make out at a powwow. . .Let alone two people of the same sex (wearin' matching jingle dresses) *L

j/k

**tradish_wiyan** · 01-09-2004, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoMe
Dang tradish,

That's TMI (too much information).

I think it is disrespectful to see anyone make out at a powwow. . .Let alone two people of the same sex (wearin' matching jingle dresses) *L

j/k

:Chatter :Chatter :Chatter :Chatter right on!!! LMAO...same sex (wearin' matching jingle dresses...LOL) would be even worse if they were guys!!!!

Dat1NdnGuy · 01-09-2004, 07:58 PM

I don't care who's doing who...it none of my biz...I recently heard a theory about it tho...Someone said that it might be Gods way of controlling the population...I'm not too sure what to say to that one...but I know that people are people just the same. I do know that A LOT of folks in the circut are called gay and theyre not even...There's seriously too much TALK goin on these days...

WolfTears · 01-09-2004, 08:13 PM

Be who you are .. be true to what you are ..matters not to me as long as you are honest about who an what you are at all times .. then dance be who you are .. but dont bring it public smoochin an stuff those things should be left for private ...mom would box us good if we even held hands in public in the day hours let alone at a pow wow ...no kissy face huggie bear stuff nope ... I like my ears just where they are.:D

Kituhwa · 01-10-2004, 06:46 AM

This one's pretty tricky.

Most New Ager kind of neo-paganist types are under the somewhat mistaken impression that all Indians everywhere were and are totally accepting of gays, and that's not entirely true.

An argument can certainly be made for that fact that, historically speaking most Indian people have been more tolerant of same sex relationships than have many other peoples in the world.

A lot of people don't know or realize this, but when the United States was founded it was a criminal offense to be gay. If you were a man and convicted of being an "efeminate" (their word for homesexual/gay back then) you were actually punished by death. Similarly, if you were proven to be guilty of "female buggary" (their word for lesbian) than you were also subject to the death penalty.

And I'm talking this happened way way back in the colonial days when everybody was pretty much operating under those puritanical like laws.

There are may places in the world where you can still be executed if "convicted" of the "crime" of being gay, many Muslim countries have laws like this in place.

As far as Indians are concerned, I know that among some tribes they have some pretty strong traditions concerning these "two spirits" and among at least some they were held in high esteem, well respected members of the community who served a specific function in their society. However, what should be remembered that, even in societies where such a thing was celebrated, that doesn't mean that there wasn't a single person who had a problem with it. I can't honestly believe that even in these tribes where gays were held in high esteem there weren't at least a few macho guys who had a problem with folks like that.

On the same note, I've encountered people who were members of tribes who's own tradition seemed to indicate quite clearly that to them, being gay was something that was not acceptable. I've encountered varying degrees of intolerance toward this behavior depending upon whom I've talked to. I recall once an apache friend of mine, her staunchly traditional grandfather, upon seeing a conference of gay natives at washington DC on television remarked, "You know, there's people that are like that, but they aren't supposed to say anything about it." Which made me wonder if Apaches had a "don't ask don't tell policy" ha ha. But I can't really argue that point, as it was the position of only one Apache.

Today, its kind of difficult because, lets suppose you yourself have no problem with anybody being gay, or especially no problem with Indians being gay. And since its accepted by most people today, what if you encountered someone who was a member of a certain tribe who's own traditions believed that homosexuality was unacceptable? You might obviously disagree with them, but how do you approach that situation? I mean you can't just make the blanket statement that "Indians have always tolerated/accepted being gay" when they can obviously counter, "That's not true in my tribe". So in defending the right of your gay friends to choose whom they are attracted to and want to spend their time with, you run the risk of offending this other person by suggesting that their might be something "wrong" in your mind with this person's traditional beliefs, and by extension, his or her tribe's traditional beliefs.

I mean, to do so would make you no better than an overzealous missionary claiming that to have long hair or to wear traditional clothing is a sin against God.

I was raised not in a traditional manner but by fundamentalist Christian parents and was taught that being gay was a deplorable sin, one of the worst things you could possible do. And that all those that participated in this behavior would find their place in hell.

I found that really hard to believe when I started going to school and the assistant director of Admissions helped me with everything that I was having problems with, he'd even listen to personal problems of mine that werent' even school related, always offered me encouragement and so forth. Today, I'm on the National Dean's List for 2003 and in no small part because if his encouragement I have "amazing grade" according to the faculty and staff at school. And he is a gay man.

As for public displays of affection, I will admit when two guys are going at it like that, I have an immediate reaction of one who is, at least......disturbed or perhaps uncomfortable with what I'm seeing. But I don't see how one set of rules should apply for one group of people and not for another, if straight folks can make out in public I don't see why we should be asking them not to.

And personally, and at least I can admit it, and most guys won't,

I personally wouldn't have any problem with a couple of jingle dancers making out.....

what? I'm sorry

I can't help it

none of us can, but at least I'm honest about it.

Gah-Gah! · 01-10-2004, 09:28 AM

Gays at powwows?

:Thinking Hemmm? I don't think I have seen any? Or maybe I have and just didn't notice it?

Either way be and let be. Everyone deserves to have a gay old time at a powwow!! Get it? Gay old time!? Aww forget it. Hahaha!! :Thumbs

But for reals, I don't care if they are there. :24:

superndngyrl · 01-10-2004, 11:11 AM

Yea I know some peeps that are gay and dance. Whats the big deal? I haven't seen any cross dressing gay people tho. Where does that happen?

01-08-2004, 04:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,433	Gay Indians? ___ Back in high school, being gay was considered something bad. Gay people were singled out, rediculed and sometimes even battered. Then in college, gay people were more open and even had their own campus organizations. Some tribes believe gays are "holy" or "touched by the spirit." I have seen several people cross dress at different powwows because they are gay. Still others who are gay dance in their own gender clothing. What's your take on this? Should gay people be allowed to participate in the dance arena?

01-08-2004, 05:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
tradish_wiyan plains n8tv Join Date: May 2003 Location: northern plains Posts: 1,093	Historically, gay people were very respected because they lived in both "worlds" so to speak. Society is more "acceptable" to gays now than in years past. It don't bother me to see gays dancing...long as they are not making out in public...eeww Some things should stay behind closed doors, or in tipi's LOL __________________ yeah, yeah, yeah... ...never underestimate the power of stupid people in groups... If quizzes are "quizical"...What are tests?

01-09-2004, 04:03 PM	#5 (permalink)
Crow_hunny_420 ~~ Is Tha Prototype~~ Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Teepee Capital of the World Posts: 9,601	ditto what they said took tha word right outta my mouf __________________ ~~~Do Not Lead me in to Temptation I can Find it myself~~~ :D :uptosomet

01-09-2004, 07:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
Dat1NdnGuy Aint Dat Sumptin? Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 1,020	LOL I don't care who's doing who...it none of my biz...I recently heard a theory about it tho...Someone said that it might be Gods way of controlling the population...I'm not too sure what to say to that one...but I know that people are people just the same. I do know that A LOT of folks in the circut are called gay and theyre not even...There's seriously too much TALK goin on these days... __________________ "Out greatest fear is not that we are inadequate, our greatest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light not our darkness that most frightens us." "Never Compromise yourself, Your all you've got" "An eye for an eye will only lead to a blind world."

01-09-2004, 08:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
WolfTears StrongWillowsSister Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Nashville Tenn Posts: 804	Be who you are .. be true to what you are ..matters not to me as long as you are honest about who an what you are at all times .. then dance be who you are .. but dont bring it public smoochin an stuff those things should be left for private ...mom would box us good if we even held hands in public in the day hours let alone at a pow wow ...no kissy face huggie bear stuff nope ... I like my ears just where they are.:D __________________ Better known an loved as Men~Nie Turtles ! Life is what you make it. Becareful what you give . You just might get it back!

01-08-2004, 07:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
Dancin by the bay Graceless Grass Dancer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: city by the bayCALI Posts: 1,108	I was raised to respect all people. Regardless of their race, sexual choice or any difference. It's a strong person who can over look other people differences and still accept them as human beings with views and lives different then our own. :mrking: I can't believe some of the prejudice that goes on.

01-08-2004, 08:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Riverwoman Guest Posts: n/a	I don't see why not! We are all one with the creator:)

01-09-2004, 04:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
billyjoejimbob Fat Singer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: white guy land Posts: 1,517	Doesnt bother me. I heard that alot of dancers are. 1 friend who knows people in an area (names and areas withheld) says that many of the dancers with really nice stuff are gay. (Not that everyone with nice stuff is gay.) He knew alot of them and it was a fact.

01-10-2004, 06:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
Kituhwa Junior Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Denver Posts: 178	This one's pretty tricky. Most New Ager kind of neo-paganist types are under the somewhat mistaken impression that all Indians everywhere were and are totally accepting of gays, and that's not entirely true. An argument can certainly be made for that fact that, historically speaking most Indian people have been more tolerant of same sex relationships than have many other peoples in the world. A lot of people don't know or realize this, but when the United States was founded it was a criminal offense to be gay. If you were a man and convicted of being an "efeminate" (their word for homesexual/gay back then) you were actually punished by death. Similarly, if you were proven to be guilty of "female buggary" (their word for lesbian) than you were also subject to the death penalty. And I'm talking this happened way way back in the colonial days when everybody was pretty much operating under those puritanical like laws. There are may places in the world where you can still be executed if "convicted" of the "crime" of being gay, many Muslim countries have laws like this in place. As far as Indians are concerned, I know that among some tribes they have some pretty strong traditions concerning these "two spirits" and among at least some they were held in high esteem, well respected members of the community who served a specific function in their society. However, what should be remembered that, even in societies where such a thing was celebrated, that doesn't mean that there wasn't a single person who had a problem with it. I can't honestly believe that even in these tribes where gays were held in high esteem there weren't at least a few macho guys who had a problem with folks like that. On the same note, I've encountered people who were members of tribes who's own tradition seemed to indicate quite clearly that to them, being gay was something that was not acceptable. I've encountered varying degrees of intolerance toward this behavior depending upon whom I've talked to. I recall once an apache friend of mine, her staunchly traditional grandfather, upon seeing a conference of gay natives at washington DC on television remarked, "You know, there's people that are like that, but they aren't supposed to say anything about it." Which made me wonder if Apaches had a "don't ask don't tell policy" ha ha. But I can't really argue that point, as it was the position of only one Apache. Today, its kind of difficult because, lets suppose you yourself have no problem with anybody being gay, or especially no problem with Indians being gay. And since its accepted by most people today, what if you encountered someone who was a member of a certain tribe who's own traditions believed that homosexuality was unacceptable? You might obviously disagree with them, but how do you approach that situation? I mean you can't just make the blanket statement that "Indians have always tolerated/accepted being gay" when they can obviously counter, "That's not true in my tribe". So in defending the right of your gay friends to choose whom they are attracted to and want to spend their time with, you run the risk of offending this other person by suggesting that their might be something "wrong" in your mind with this person's traditional beliefs, and by extension, his or her tribe's traditional beliefs. I mean, to do so would make you no better than an overzealous missionary claiming that to have long hair or to wear traditional clothing is a sin against God. I was raised not in a traditional manner but by fundamentalist Christian parents and was taught that being gay was a deplorable sin, one of the worst things you could possible do. And that all those that participated in this behavior would find their place in hell. I found that really hard to believe when I started going to school and the assistant director of Admissions helped me with everything that I was having problems with, he'd even listen to personal problems of mine that werent' even school related, always offered me encouragement and so forth. Today, I'm on the National Dean's List for 2003 and in no small part because if his encouragement I have "amazing grade" according to the faculty and staff at school. And he is a gay man. As for public displays of affection, I will admit when two guys are going at it like that, I have an immediate reaction of one who is, at least......disturbed or perhaps uncomfortable with what I'm seeing. But I don't see how one set of rules should apply for one group of people and not for another, if straight folks can make out in public I don't see why we should be asking them not to. And personally, and at least I can admit it, and most guys won't, I personally wouldn't have any problem with a couple of jingle dancers making out..... what? I'm sorry I can't help it none of us can, but at least I'm honest about it.

01-10-2004, 09:28 AM	#12 (permalink)
Gah-Gah! VOTE ME ~ 4 CALI GOVERNER Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: 5 Minute walk from Walmart!! Posts: 660	Gays at powwows? :Thinking Hemmm? I don't think I have seen any? Or maybe I have and just didn't notice it? Either way be and let be. Everyone deserves to have a gay old time at a powwow!! Get it? Gay old time!? Aww forget it. Hahaha!! :Thumbs But for reals, I don't care if they are there. :24: __________________ If there ain't soccer in heaven ~ I ain't going!!

01-10-2004, 11:11 AM	#13 (permalink)
superndngyrl two little indians Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: in front of the computer Posts: 4,231	Yea I know some peeps that are gay and dance. Whats the big deal? I haven't seen any cross dressing gay people tho. Where does that happen? __________________ The only time its too late to start dancing is when you're dead.