Hiring a Tabulator

**kiyaanii mom** · 10-01-2007, 03:41 PM

Many of you know, there is always controversy regarding the contest. As a committee you always double and triple check your numbers and then cross your fingers that the complainers aren't too lound. lol

I have noticed recently that some "committees" are picking tabulators from outside their committee to do tabulation and then paying them. Kind of like the independent accounting firm that tabulate for the Oscars...LOL

I can easily see this "tabulator" position becoming a standard position, like the sound system vendor. Maybe even a headstaff position and put on a flyer.... aayyee!

What do you all think of this?

Nezbah · 10-01-2007, 04:53 PM

As I see it, some of the committee's don't know the first hand about contesting or tabulating, what to look for, etc. So I can see them wanting to hire someone who 'knows' how to count, etc. LOL. I know some tabulators that actually help out committee's not just with the contest but with the whole aspect of the powwow. I was asked to be 'head judge'/ Tabulator for a powwow coming up this spring, to me it was a honor to be asked. However, after talking with the head of the committee for a long time, the previous 'head judge' arranged all her scheduling for the powwow, looked for judges, and did numerous of things that I don't think a head judge should be doing. So I told her, we needed to sit down and talk about this, what my role should be, who should be doing what, and hopefully guiding her towards a better more efficient run powwow. I think that if someone is going to be hired and paid for doing tabulation or as head judge, it should be for just that....LOL.

So yes, it would be a nice 'side' business to have. Now some committee's have veteran dancers/singers or powwow people involved that they would not need to hire someone, but most committee's are not as fortunate.

Hire me hire me hire me.........lmao. Kidding

Zeke · 10-02-2007, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom

Many of you know, there is always controversy regarding the contest. As a committee you always double and triple check your numbers and then cross your fingers that the complainers aren't too lound. lol

I have noticed recently that some "committees" are picking tabulators from outside their committee to do tabulation and then paying them. Kind of like the independent accounting firm that tabulate for the Oscars...LOL

I can easily see this "tabulator" position becoming a standard position, like the sound system vendor. Maybe even a headstaff position and put on a flyer.... aayyee!

What do you all think of this?

It doesn't really deflect any critique.

Why? An organization perceived as dishonest will be perceived as bringing in a puppet tabulator.

An organization perceived as honest could use Mickey Mouse.

It all goes back to the organization.

Unless, of course, you desire to go full-bore independent auditor like they do for Oscar voting. Then, of course, folks will just complain about the data collected before tabulation.

The best thing an organization can do is make their contest rules public and follow them. Then, you become perceived as honest and the rest of the crap becomes petty whining.

skybird5 · 10-02-2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom

I can easily see this "tabulator" position becoming a standard position, like the sound system vendor. Maybe even a headstaff position and put on a flyer.... aayyee!

What do you all think of this?

Umm, some of the Southern California pow wows already do this...posting the name of the registrar/tabulators on the fliers, so people know up front who's doing it. IT helps greatly because lots of dancers/singers won't go to certain pow wows if certain people are tabulating.
You wouldn't believe how many people asked me over the summer if I was tabulating Morongo, they flat out didn't go because they don't trust the Denver March tabulators. I think if a committee is going to hire a tabulating team, they should put it on the flyers to give everyone the choice of knowing up front what they're in for.

Zeke · 10-02-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skybird5

...they flat out didn't go because they don't trust the Denver March tabulators...

Perfect example of my previous post.

Why? They didn't say, "I don't trust John Doe," they said they don't trust Denver March tabulators.

It is about the perceived efficacy of the organization, not about individual folks doing the work.

Paul G · 10-02-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiyaanii mom

Many of you know, there is always controversy regarding the contest. As a committee you always double and triple check your numbers and then cross your fingers that the complainers aren't too lound. lol

I have noticed recently that some "committees" are picking tabulators from outside their committee to do tabulation and then paying them. Kind of like the independent accounting firm that tabulate for the Oscars...LOL

I can easily see this "tabulator" position becoming a standard position, like the sound system vendor. Maybe even a headstaff position and put on a flyer.... aayyee!

What do you all think of this?

Morongo hires Denver March.

Zeke · 10-02-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul G

Morongo hires Denver March.

I don't know a soul from Denver March -- and am not commenting on their worthiness -- I am merely pointing out that Denver March could fire all of their tabulators, hire new ones, and some folk STILL wouldn't trust them because of who they represent. (Same with any organization that has developed a reputation to some: it is hard to kill, even if you are righteous.)

This is, still, my recommendation: The best thing an organization can do is make their contest rules public and follow them. Then, you become perceived as honest and the rest of the crap becomes petty whining.

Judging is based in judgment, which is subjective. That's just the way it is. Even if the most independent math-folk were brought in to do the formulas, people would just complain about the subjectiveness. That can't be changed.

**kiyaanii mom** · 10-02-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

This is, still, my recommendation: The best thing an organization can do is make their contest rules public and follow them. Then, you become perceived as honest and the rest of the crap becomes petty whining.

Zeke, thanks for the good comments... I agree the rules should be public and should be followed. AND tabulation sheets and ballots should also be public. Someone posted in another thread they they should even be posted. I'm not sure about going that far. But one thing I have started doing at powwows that I run or tabulate, is the tabulation sheet are open. If someone wants to question it.

Thanks everyone for your comments... Keep them coming.

Nezbah · 10-02-2007, 01:49 PM

yeah........ so what's with this 100 or 150.00 charge to even question a tabulation sheet?? That right there is crooked. LOL. Anyhow, like Kmom, anything I tabulate, the books are open. Annnnnnnnd, any judges are going to be people who know how to judge, not just any joe shmoe who I may want to snag up with later that evening.....ayeeeeee. (Hmmmmm that's an idea there......haha kidding)

Zeke · 10-02-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezbah

yeah........ so what's with this 100 or 150.00 charge to even question a tabulation sheet?? That right there is crooked.

Not even close to crooked. All that does is cut out the petty whining. Folks can still get a review.

Such is a typical fee for things run as a business, to cease the riff-raff. Now, if the idea is that powwows should be run as family events, what's the deal with contests, anyway?

Str8Dancer49 · 10-02-2007, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezbah

Annnnnnnnd, any judges are going to be people who know how to judge, not just any joe shmoe who I may want to snag up with later that evening.....ayeeeeee.

Gawww.... so does that mean I get to be a judge or not?
lol....jk.....

Str8Dancer49 · 10-02-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

Not even close to crooked. All that does is cut out the petty whining. Folks can still get a review.

Such is a typical fee for things run as a business, to cease the riff-raff.

Yeah, but Zeke, its kinda like what you said about whether a committee has earned people's trust.... if they gotta charge to review the books, it too often makes it seem like they've got something to hide.

I've seen little rinky-dink powwows that charge a $500 protest fee.... yeah, you read that right, $500. That kinda deal prevents not only petty whiners (we agree, that's good), but also legitimate concerns from getting a fair hearing (not so good - just adds more to the drama and distrust).

Kiyaani Mom and Nezbah, you are to be commended for trying to keep things above-board by having open books...... but I still say posting the ballots will help expose the nepotism of particular judges. I know it's alot of work, but it is VERY effective. WhoMe has mentioned that he's seen it done before, and I've been to a dance where it was done. Instead of wondering if I got screwed, I walked away knowing the difference between me and the guy who placed one spot higher was just a matter of a couple of points.... no monkey buisiness involved.

**chazziff** · 10-02-2007, 06:21 PM

there is a tabulation company here in saskatchewan that i think runs out of Prince Albert. i think they have crain in their name lol ... i have seen them more and more at pow wows.

they have a bar code system for grand entries and spot checks. and a lap top for calculations and they even were able to put all their electronic judges sheets on the regina powwow's web site last year. it wasnt on for long .. and it was about 800 pages + .. but it was there lol.

10-01-2007, 03:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
kiyaanii mom We'll See.... Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Waiting for you all to go to Firerock!!! Posts: 3,462	Hiring a Tabulator Many of you know, there is always controversy regarding the contest. As a committee you always double and triple check your numbers and then cross your fingers that the complainers aren't too lound. lol I have noticed recently that some "committees" are picking tabulators from outside their committee to do tabulation and then paying them. Kind of like the independent accounting firm that tabulate for the Oscars...LOL I can easily see this "tabulator" position becoming a standard position, like the sound system vendor. Maybe even a headstaff position and put on a flyer.... aayyee! What do you all think of this?

10-01-2007, 04:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
Nezbah Peace n Mutton Grease Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ober here in NM Posts: 886	As I see it, some of the committee's don't know the first hand about contesting or tabulating, what to look for, etc. So I can see them wanting to hire someone who 'knows' how to count, etc. LOL. I know some tabulators that actually help out committee's not just with the contest but with the whole aspect of the powwow. I was asked to be 'head judge'/ Tabulator for a powwow coming up this spring, to me it was a honor to be asked. However, after talking with the head of the committee for a long time, the previous 'head judge' arranged all her scheduling for the powwow, looked for judges, and did numerous of things that I don't think a head judge should be doing. So I told her, we needed to sit down and talk about this, what my role should be, who should be doing what, and hopefully guiding her towards a better more efficient run powwow. I think that if someone is going to be hired and paid for doing tabulation or as head judge, it should be for just that....LOL. So yes, it would be a nice 'side' business to have. Now some committee's have veteran dancers/singers or powwow people involved that they would not need to hire someone, but most committee's are not as fortunate. Hire me hire me hire me.........lmao. Kidding __________________ You have crossed my path, you have touched my heart, you are my friend, You will never be forgotten......

10-02-2007, 01:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
Nezbah Peace n Mutton Grease Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Ober here in NM Posts: 886	yeah........ so what's with this 100 or 150.00 charge to even question a tabulation sheet?? That right there is crooked. LOL. Anyhow, like Kmom, anything I tabulate, the books are open. Annnnnnnnd, any judges are going to be people who know how to judge, not just any joe shmoe who I may want to snag up with later that evening.....ayeeeeee. (Hmmmmm that's an idea there......haha kidding) __________________ You have crossed my path, you have touched my heart, you are my friend, You will never be forgotten......

10-02-2007, 06:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
chazziff YO!! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in a big sleigh bed Posts: 6,516	there is a tabulation company here in saskatchewan that i think runs out of Prince Albert. i think they have crain in their name lol ... i have seen them more and more at pow wows. they have a bar code system for grand entries and spot checks. and a lap top for calculations and they even were able to put all their electronic judges sheets on the regina powwow's web site last year. it wasnt on for long .. and it was about 800 pages + .. but it was there lol. __________________ See I wanna move, but can't escape from you So I keep it low, keep a secret code So everybody else don't have to know So keep ya love locked down