Pale Wow - Page 5

trob226 · 06-02-2007, 10:28 AM

Wardancer - your situation illustrates why the nations themselves ought to have sole control over who is designated one of their citizens, and that includes the right to change the requirements as their society changes. If blood quantum is getting thinner overall but the culture remains true even in individuals who don't make X%, the nation ought to be the one that says whether citizenship requirements should change. Maybe the feds should have say over who gets fed money, but that's all.

**wardancer** · 06-02-2007, 12:14 PM

We do ! The C & A Tribes of Ok. have that power , but apparently those in the hirearchy don't see the need. If they lower the blood quantum , they risk losing money ! Here we are , back to the money issue. If the tribes were to lower blood quantums , then all the income distributed to the tribal members would substantually decrease. Our puny percaps would be cut in half or more. The costs for health care would increase.The fact of the matter is , they don't want to lose a dime ! What they refuse to believe is that slowly and surely we're being eliminated , little by little. Until they realize this and start making changes , all the tribes risk this same fate !
How many "tribes" were originally recognized by the U.S. Gov't. and how many are now ?

Zeke · 06-02-2007, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trob226

If blood quantum is getting thinner overall but the culture remains true even in individuals who don't make X%, the nation ought to be the one that says whether citizenship requirements should change.

Concur, making culture the thing, right?

Indian Nations are not, truly, sovereign: but that is a discussion for another time. One of the great powers of nations is to determine who their citizens are, by culture. (Here, in the United States, we do things like testing to ensure that folks understand our culture and mechanisms...)

But tribes are, at some level, beholden -- still! -- to their masters in Washington and that 1/4-blood hammer is pretty strong across the land.

We need to throw that off and make culture the guiding force in our ongoing existence. If we continue with blood, that creates an issue: extinction. :(

kiowakat · 06-02-2007, 12:21 PM

If you guys are having problems with your bloodlines with the tribe, then shouldn't your arguement be with your tribe!!, they are the ones that have these bloodlines, quotum, lineage, on record, fix what is in your own backyard (your tribe) before you come out to the real public. all's I see now is a bunch of whiners, wanting us to understand their position within their tribe.

**wardancer** · 06-02-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiowakat

If you guys are having problems with your bloodlines with the tribe, then shouldn't your arguement be with your tribe!!, they are the ones that have these bloodlines, quotum, lineage, on record, fix what is in your own backyard (your tribe) before you come out to the real public. all's I see now is a bunch of whiners, wanting us to understand their position within their tribe.

Let me join in again...
First off , I'm not "whining " I'm just trying to make a point. Does the Kiowa tribe have a blood quantum ? Are you a fullblood ? Are your children ? Are your grand-children ? How many generations will it take with your grand-children marrying non-Kiowas before they are no longer Kiowa ? According to the gov't that is. My family will always be Cheyenne as long as we teach them that that is who they are.they know who they are and where they come from , they know who their ancestors are , and they know their history. But according to the U.S. Gov't they are not. It's not just the C & A , it's all tribes with a blood quantum requirement for membership. I'm sorry if this offends you or you can't seem to grasp the significance of this topic.

**sokoki_wolf** · 06-02-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer

Let me join in again...
First off , I'm not "whining " I'm just trying to make a point. Does the Kiowa tribe have a blood quantum ? Are you a fullblood ? Are your children ? Are your grand-children ? How many generations will it take with your grand-children marrying non-Kiowas before they are no longer Kiowa ? According to the gov't that is. My family will always be Cheyenne as long as we teach them that that is who they are.they know who they are and where they come from , they know who their ancestors are , and they know their history. But according to the U.S. Gov't they are not. It's not just the C & A , it's all tribes with a blood quantum requirement for membership. I'm sorry if this offends you or you can't seem to grasp the significance of this topic.

WD we do grasp this fully and if you read the salem post ive said it there too...we are the ones who determine who is and isnt indian,who cares about the US govt( fyi zekes pay check comes from govt funding...abit hypocritical)...but evberyone beware...if you folow along with zekes "thinking"(lmao),then you and all youre children etc will be come generic and pan-indian...he abdicates letting ANYONE who claims theyre indian with or with out proof be indian...soon everyone will be in sweat,saying Mitakuye oyasin and pilamya no matter what their tribes language was...yes culture is key BUT zeke would have us give up our individual customs for this bland grey slush of pan-indianism....his whole trip is based on his inability to be recognized by his own tribe and his inferiority complex attached ....and so he wants everyone to suffer the same fate as him...
do you want your ceremonies and dances and songs corrupted ? want to lose your languages? your tribal identity? then listen and follow zekes words...

**wardancer** · 06-02-2007, 03:46 PM

In my family , our customs and traditions are taught.

I know Zeke and his opinions are his and I have mine. I do not "follow" him or anyone else for that matter. Sometimes our opinions are simular and sometimes not.
This forum is designed for open discussion of topics related to our culture and traditions , and NOT name calling and arguement that there is no perfect answer to. To threaten ones job crossed that line , so to speak , and was un-called for. If you all want to banter back and forth , I guess that is your right in an open forum , but don't try to get me to take sides in this , cause I won't. Just so you know I've seen some good points made on both sides of this arguement as well as the salem thread. I'm also seeing a bunch of crap....again on both sides !
Sokoki Wolf : Just so you know , I am 1 of 11 board members at the Indian Center mentioned , but this has nothing to do with my opinions here. I had my opinions before I was on "The Board" and will still have them after my term on "The Board". As long as Zeke expresses his opinions , as his , I could care less what he says.

trob226 · 06-02-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer

We do ! The C & A Tribes of Ok. have that power , but apparently those in the hirearchy don't see the need. If they lower the blood quantum , they risk losing money ! Here we are , back to the money issue. If the tribes were to lower blood quantums , then all the income distributed to the tribal members would substantually decrease. Our puny percaps would be cut in half or more. The costs for health care would increase.The fact of the matter is , they don't want to lose a dime ! What they refuse to believe is that slowly and surely we're being eliminated , little by little. Until they realize this and start making changes , all the tribes risk this same fate !
How many "tribes" were originally recognized by the U.S. Gov't. and how many are now ?

The real salvation of Indian cultures lies in restoring the self-sufficiency of every possible nation. Casinos may be part of the answer for some, but not for all and not for the long term. Good leaders will get every possible cent they can to use for investing for their nation - buy office buildings in Manhattan, agribusinesses in Iowa, the Hard Rock Cafe, whatever is in keeping with their culture and wherever it may be. Keep investing, use the income to bring economic development home in a way that is in keeping with their cultures. Easier to say than do, I know, and not likely to happen everywhere, but for individual cultures to truly survive and thrive, something like this has to happen.

**sokoki_wolf** · 06-02-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wardancer

In my family , our customs and traditions are taught.

I know Zeke and his opinions are his and I have mine. I do not "follow" him or anyone else for that matter. Sometimes our opinions are simular and sometimes not.
This forum is designed for open discussion of topics related to our culture and traditions , and NOT name calling and arguement that there is no perfect answer to. To threaten ones job crossed that line , so to speak , and was un-called for. If you all want to banter back and forth , I guess that is your right in an open forum , but don't try to get me to take sides in this , cause I won't. Just so you know I've seen some good points made on both sides of this arguement as well as the salem thread. I'm also seeing a bunch of crap....again on both sides !
Sokoki Wolf : Just so you know , I am 1 of 11 board members at the Indian Center mentioned , but this has nothing to do with my opinions here. I had my opinions before I was on "The Board" and will still have them after my term on "The Board". As long as Zeke expresses his opinions , as his , I could care less what he says.

im glad your family teaches,thats whats needed
if you want zekes opinions to be seen as his own and not your cnters then i would suggest that what he posts on center time reflects center policy etc...what i replied was not directed at you,it was an open comment to others who may be reading an havent been following the salem thread...i didnt threaten ones job either,that was done off this site and not by me...so stand corrected..i did however point out that he has now lost his effectiveness in dealing with ndn poeple because of HIS comments...do you honestly think ppl are going to trust him and now your center after he showed his colors? read again his slams about traditional people...and are you not yourself,acting as one of the vile indian police that zeke spouts on and on about...
we asked straight fwd questions,they werent answered,and got name calling etc back...nice employee you have there,hate to see him with elders...and ill ask again and maybe you can explain...how can a culture be preserved if you dilute it with people who are NOT from that culture??????

**wardancer** · 06-02-2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokoki_wolf

im glad your family teaches,thats whats needed
if you want zekes opinions to be seen as his own and not your cnters then i would suggest that what he posts on center time reflects center policy etc...what i replied was not directed at you,it was an open comment to others who may be reading an havent been following the salem thread...i didnt threaten ones job either,that was done off this site and not by me...so stand corrected..i did however point out that he has now lost his effectiveness in dealing with ndn poeple because of HIS comments...do you honestly think ppl are going to trust him and now your center after he showed his colors? read again his slams about traditional people...and are you not yourself,acting as one of the vile indian police that zeke spouts on and on about...
we asked straight fwd questions,they werent answered,and got name calling etc back...nice employee you have there,hate to see him with elders...and ill ask again and maybe you can explain...how can a culture be preserved if you dilute it with people who are NOT from that culture??????

How can one be sure of ones culture if one has not been exposed to it ? If a person , say Cheyenne as a generic example , was told by parents , grandparents , whoever , that the person is of Cheyenne ancestry , but this person doesn't know anything about it other that that , how would you propose them to find out ? I'm sorry , I'm not avoiding the question just trying to put it in perspective. I honestly don't have an answer. I was raised "white" My mother and father divorced when I was 4 and I went back to Mo. with my mother. I grew up on a farm in central Mo. ! I wasn't 'till I was around 22-23 that I decided to find out what it meant to be Cheyenne. So I sought out my father and we became friends. I studied our history , talked with family , listened to our songs for several years before deciding I even wanted to dance.(which is such a small part of our culture )Fortunately while this was going on , my children were small , so they learned as I did. That's how I did it , but someone without family , where do they go ? How do they learn these things ? Especially when come across ndn people that are so determined to dis-allow them any knowledge.
In the early days our people , we let people from other tribes and races join us , and some eventually became accepted or adopted into the tribe. When the U.S.Gov't came in and made their lists these people were written in as tribal members ! Why have these attitudes changed ? Why do we no longer accept outsiders in ? I say it's the gov'ts influence over the tribes and the whole blood quantum theory ! Well , that and money.

On the same note , I'm not abdicating that every person that heard a rumor of ndn blood in their family , be suddenly signed up with a tribe. Nor do I think it's O.K. for some of these people to try to create their own tribe. But until someone can come up with a fool-proof plan to address this , it will be an on-going arguement !

".i didnt threaten ones job either,that was done off this site and not by me...so stand corrected."

I apologize , I didn't intend that to be directed directly at you , but on or off site it's wrong! I stand corrected though.

When an employee is on salary who says what is or isn't personel time? I still say as long as his opinions are his personal opinions , I'll not censor anything he wishes to post on an open forum. I've had 3 phone conversations with other board members to that effect this morning. Ed is the Chairman and I am the Vice- Chairman. Anyone going to HAIC.com can get a list of all Board Members and e-mail address'

**Kiwehnzii** · 06-02-2007, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sokoki_wolf

read again his slams about traditional people...

and ill ask again and maybe you can explain...how can a culture be preserved if you dilute it with people who are NOT from that culture??????

I'm not asking this question, but I am interested in the response.

06-02-2007, 12:14 PM	#82 (permalink)
wardancer Don't be skurred ! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: S.E. Kansas Posts: 11,291	We do ! The C & A Tribes of Ok. have that power , but apparently those in the hirearchy don't see the need. If they lower the blood quantum , they risk losing money ! Here we are , back to the money issue. If the tribes were to lower blood quantums , then all the income distributed to the tribal members would substantually decrease. Our puny percaps would be cut in half or more. The costs for health care would increase.The fact of the matter is , they don't want to lose a dime ! What they refuse to believe is that slowly and surely we're being eliminated , little by little. Until they realize this and start making changes , all the tribes risk this same fate ! How many "tribes" were originally recognized by the U.S. Gov't. and how many are now ? __________________ *I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !* *Never wrestle with a pig....you both get dirty and the pig likes it !* Have A Stress Free Year ! The parties over...Back to work ! I'm not as good as I once was , but I'm as good once as I ever was !

06-02-2007, 03:46 PM	#87 (permalink)
wardancer Don't be skurred ! Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: S.E. Kansas Posts: 11,291	In my family , our customs and traditions are taught. I know Zeke and his opinions are his and I have mine. I do not "follow" him or anyone else for that matter. Sometimes our opinions are simular and sometimes not. This forum is designed for open discussion of topics related to our culture and traditions , and NOT name calling and arguement that there is no perfect answer to. To threaten ones job crossed that line , so to speak , and was un-called for. If you all want to banter back and forth , I guess that is your right in an open forum , but don't try to get me to take sides in this , cause I won't. Just so you know I've seen some good points made on both sides of this arguement as well as the salem thread. I'm also seeing a bunch of crap....again on both sides ! Sokoki Wolf : Just so you know , I am 1 of 11 board members at the Indian Center mentioned , but this has nothing to do with my opinions here. I had my opinions before I was on "The Board" and will still have them after my term on "The Board". As long as Zeke expresses his opinions , as his , I could care less what he says. __________________ *I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !* *Never wrestle with a pig....you both get dirty and the pig likes it !* Have A Stress Free Year ! The parties over...Back to work ! I'm not as good as I once was , but I'm as good once as I ever was !

06-02-2007, 10:28 AM	#81 (permalink)
trob226 Senior Dancer Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Where my hat is Posts: 698	Wardancer - your situation illustrates why the nations themselves ought to have sole control over who is designated one of their citizens, and that includes the right to change the requirements as their society changes. If blood quantum is getting thinner overall but the culture remains true even in individuals who don't make X%, the nation ought to be the one that says whether citizenship requirements should change. Maybe the feds should have say over who gets fed money, but that's all.

06-02-2007, 12:21 PM	#84 (permalink)
kiowakat Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St.Louis Posts: 1,243	If you guys are having problems with your bloodlines with the tribe, then shouldn't your arguement be with your tribe!!, they are the ones that have these bloodlines, quotum, lineage, on record, fix what is in your own backyard (your tribe) before you come out to the real public. all's I see now is a bunch of whiners, wanting us to understand their position within their tribe.

06-02-2007, 06:52 PM	#92 (permalink)
SuzzeQ4 Senior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: next door to Timmies...Jealous? Posts: 563