Junior Head Lady ..To dance or not to dance

jinx · 07-16-2006, 07:11 PM

regardless of tribal affiliation should a JUNIOR HEAD LADY be allowed to dance pregnant?

Steffan Redhawk · 07-27-2006, 10:56 PM

I cannot say "Reguardless of Tribal Affiliation" because, I don't belong to every tribe, and haven't been taught the ways of every tribe. I can say at an "Intertribal" event (Powwow, or what have ya) that all ways should be honored.

I went to a powwow where a few guys from idaho where at, and they were dancing the opposite way around the arena, and they were TOLD to stop... I had things to say about that one too...

I personally had a man spit on my mocs because I danced the veterans song for my father, who asked me to, when he was ill, I had permission from the head vet to bring up the tail (with a little help) This elder man spat on my moccasins... He was ojibwe, in Indiana... but, to the pregnant girl dancing...

I would say it would be more proper for her to recommend a relative to take her place, than to dance.. Other than that, I would ask why a mother, of a born child, or unborn, would be a head junior female dancer..

She's a woman now, not a girl.

Just my opinion, if I've offended anyone with the previous statement, I apologize... This is the way I was taught.

jinx · 07-31-2006, 08:49 PM

thanks for the reply . all opinions will be appreciated.

CHEROSAGE · 08-01-2006, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

regardless of tribal affiliation should a JUNIOR HEAD LADY be allowed to dance pregnant?

I pray not offend anyone. I believe that the Head Staff, to include Head Junior dancers, are those dancers that people could/should be able to be looked up to. I'm not going to start the MORALs OF Life topic but this is not Socially healthy for our young people to look up to as appropriate social standards. So I guess my answer would have to be a relativity idea of how pregnant is she. Soes she show or is th epregnancy not nearly obvious. (If she didn't tell anyone would anyone have a clue? Not to be sneaky but as Bill Clinton once said Don't Ask/ Don't Tell).

Just a thought. Thanks

vickiesp9 · 08-03-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE

I pray not offend anyone. I believe that the Head Staff, to include Head Junior dancers, are those dancers that people could/should be able to be looked up to. I'm not going to start the MORALs OF Life topic but this is not Socially healthy for our young people to look up to as appropriate social standards. So I guess my answer would have to be a relativity idea of how pregnant is she. Soes she show or is th epregnancy not nearly obvious. (If she didn't tell anyone would anyone have a clue? Not to be sneaky but as Bill Clinton once said Don't Ask/ Don't Tell).

Just a thought. Thanks

But what if she was showing? Would that make a difference. Or what if people knew? Just thought I would ask.

Steffan Redhawk · 08-03-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vickiesp9

But what if she was showing? Would that make a difference. Or what if people knew? Just thought I would ask.

She knows..

The Baby Knows..

Those blessed drums know..

Creator knows..

Does it matter who else might know? Respect is respect, we show respect in everything we do, why stop now? over a hundred bux or so?

Not worth it to me.

jinx · 08-03-2006, 10:11 PM

lets kick it up a bit. what would you do if you were AD, Head Man , Head Lady, Powwow comittee, etc. and your junior head lady showed up ( and it was very clear) that she was pregnant? or as a dancer how would you react?

Steffan Redhawk · 08-04-2006, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinx

lets kick it up a bit. what would you do if you were AD, Head Man , Head Lady, Powwow comittee, etc. and your junior head lady showed up ( and it was very clear) that she was pregnant? or as a dancer how would you react?

If I were head man, I'd keep my mouth shut, and speak with the AD in private. It's part of the head mans job to keep the 'appearance' that everything is 100% okay 100% of the time, bringing problems to surface, isn't part of the job.

If I were head woman, I would seriously reflect on my past judments, and figure out how the hell someone asked ME to be head woman.

If I were AD:
I'd walk straight up to the young ladys' father, and have a sit down with him, and explain that she would not be entering my circle, in her condition. It's a fathers place to run his family, it's his wifes job to run him :D

AS AD With no father present:
Sticky Situation, I'd immediately ask for an emergency meeting with the powwow commitee, explain the situation for those who don't understand, and ask them to attend to it. I personally, would not take this problem up with the girl, or her mother. I was taught differently than that. Women tend to women, Men to men, family is a little different.

Pow Wow Commitee:

First, I'd figure out if it was known the girl was pregnant before she was asked to attend as a head jr dancer or not, if so, I would vote to eliminate the person who extended the offer, or at least give that responsibility to someone who knows a little bit about "etiquette".

Second, I'd resolve the situation as quickly, painlessly, and the most efficient way possible, first, Find a substitution, second, apologize to the girl, and her family, give whatever was promised, and explain the committes acts/feelings on the matter, and end it in a good way.

But...

No matter what, if I was a part of the staff, the girl would not enter that arena as a "ambasador" of the commitee.

I know some of you, might be offended by what I've said, and I do apologize, when my ex was pregnant, she never stepped foot in the arena, same with my friends, and family. I've known people who have, and I really look down on it...

To some of you, it doesn't matter... to those of us it does, it's really offensive, and is a slap in the face, not cute, or okay, or "times changing"...

Again, thats my opinion, it might be the case that nobody shares it, and in that case, I apologize to you all, this is the way I was brought up, and I'll be as loyal as I can to those teachings.

Thank you

Bob B Bob Firechief · 08-04-2006, 04:02 PM

So are you saying any pregnant woman should not step in the circle? Or is it just the pregnant jr. girl? If it's all women Id be interested in knowing your teaching on that one.

As for me, prettymuch what Steffan said. Don't know as I'd give her what was supposed to be. I'd give her something but not full benefit. My opinion is, she should have contacted the committee and asked if it would be a problem.

Final thought, No way sweetie, you get knocked up, you get knocked out of head position. We need people around the circle to be a good example for not only the youth, but others. We need to keep our hands clean (so to speak) if we ever want these ways to be carried on and respected.

Just one dudes opinion, take it for what it is, or not.

**WocusWoman** · 08-04-2006, 11:50 PM

I can't believe there are not more responses to this thread, I guess people a scared, or wary about having an opinion. I've been involved as a committee member, contestant and a judge over the years for a handful of events, where there were rules, and obligations, when representing a tribe or native entity. If this particular tribe, group of people do not have clear written rules for their representative, that is on them. Personally; this young lady is only being asked to be a JR. headlady, which could be another argument in itself nowadays. I would be more concerned with being liable, if she were to go into labor early, due to the job she is being asked to take on. That's all... WW

CHEROSAGE · 08-05-2006, 01:09 AM

I think that the idea of honor to self, family, friends, ect. is becoming arcaic. This is similar in nature to the idea of whether or not to show honor and bow out of a contest dance if you over step, drop items, ect..

It shouldn't matter "how pregnant" the young "lady" is. She knows in her heart how things are and should have a talk with a Committee Rep that she is comfortable with and discuss this matter. There are many ways to handle this. 1) may be to ask a friend to stand in for her. 2) may be to just bow out. 3) could be to ignor the matter and just carry on. Honor is a matter of trust. Another thought could be that the Committee still will want the young lady to carry on and continue in the position she was asked to help in.

I for one see no need for a junior head position unless the dance is one to recognise young poeple and all the headstaff is junior staff.

Steffan Redhawk · 08-05-2006, 02:57 AM

I'm not sure who I'm ticking off in this thread, but will you please stop giving me bad feedback? Theres nothing in this thread that I've stated that warrants it.. If you don't like my opinion, thats fine...

Voice yours instead.

jinx · 08-08-2006, 01:09 PM

thanks again to all that have replied . this thread was started as a (what if you were ever at a powwow and this happened kinda thing.) you know how you are sitting around and something like that pops into a conversation. ive never seen this kinda thing take place myself, but heck sometimes you never know guess we all could be somewhere and it pop up. so , lets hear some more on how you would handle it if it did. thats why i typed in regardless of tribal affiliation , cause we all know that each tribe is different on pregnant ladies being in the circle or not. this thread is aimed more at young ladies holding the jr. head lady positions or even being crowned princess and becoming pregnant. all opinions are welcome!

07-16-2006, 07:11 PM	#1 (permalink)
jinx Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14	Junior Head Lady ..To dance or not to dance regardless of tribal affiliation should a JUNIOR HEAD LADY be allowed to dance pregnant?

07-27-2006, 10:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
Steffan Redhawk Northern Traditional Join Date: May 2006 Location: Battle Creek, Michigan Posts: 235	Ouch I cannot say "Reguardless of Tribal Affiliation" because, I don't belong to every tribe, and haven't been taught the ways of every tribe. I can say at an "Intertribal" event (Powwow, or what have ya) that all ways should be honored. I went to a powwow where a few guys from idaho where at, and they were dancing the opposite way around the arena, and they were TOLD to stop... I had things to say about that one too... I personally had a man spit on my mocs because I danced the veterans song for my father, who asked me to, when he was ill, I had permission from the head vet to bring up the tail (with a little help) This elder man spat on my moccasins... He was ojibwe, in Indiana... but, to the pregnant girl dancing... I would say it would be more proper for her to recommend a relative to take her place, than to dance.. Other than that, I would ask why a mother, of a born child, or unborn, would be a head junior female dancer.. She's a woman now, not a girl. Just my opinion, if I've offended anyone with the previous statement, I apologize... This is the way I was taught. __________________ AIM: GlacierESteffan Yahoo: low_rdr ICQ: 45338941 MSN: scifiwriter@hotmail.com

08-04-2006, 04:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Bob B Bob Firechief Holla! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Where the sun meets the mountains and the hawk and eagle fly free Posts: 74	So are you saying any pregnant woman should not step in the circle? Or is it just the pregnant jr. girl? If it's all women Id be interested in knowing your teaching on that one. As for me, prettymuch what Steffan said. Don't know as I'd give her what was supposed to be. I'd give her something but not full benefit. My opinion is, she should have contacted the committee and asked if it would be a problem. Final thought, No way sweetie, you get knocked up, you get knocked out of head position. We need people around the circle to be a good example for not only the youth, but others. We need to keep our hands clean (so to speak) if we ever want these ways to be carried on and respected. Just one dudes opinion, take it for what it is, or not. __________________ Never go commando in another man's fatigues!!!

08-05-2006, 01:09 AM	#11 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,330	I think that the idea of honor to self, family, friends, ect. is becoming arcaic. This is similar in nature to the idea of whether or not to show honor and bow out of a contest dance if you over step, drop items, ect.. It shouldn't matter "how pregnant" the young "lady" is. She knows in her heart how things are and should have a talk with a Committee Rep that she is comfortable with and discuss this matter. There are many ways to handle this. 1) may be to ask a friend to stand in for her. 2) may be to just bow out. 3) could be to ignor the matter and just carry on. Honor is a matter of trust. Another thought could be that the Committee still will want the young lady to carry on and continue in the position she was asked to help in. I for one see no need for a junior head position unless the dance is one to recognise young poeple and all the headstaff is junior staff. __________________ BOB

08-05-2006, 02:57 AM	#12 (permalink)
Steffan Redhawk Northern Traditional Join Date: May 2006 Location: Battle Creek, Michigan Posts: 235	Just a quick question I'm not sure who I'm ticking off in this thread, but will you please stop giving me bad feedback? Theres nothing in this thread that I've stated that warrants it.. If you don't like my opinion, thats fine... Voice yours instead. __________________ AIM: GlacierESteffan Yahoo: low_rdr ICQ: 45338941 MSN: scifiwriter@hotmail.com

07-31-2006, 08:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
jinx Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14	thanks for the reply . all opinions will be appreciated.

08-03-2006, 10:11 PM	#7 (permalink)
jinx Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14	lets kick it up a bit. what would you do if you were AD, Head Man , Head Lady, Powwow comittee, etc. and your junior head lady showed up ( and it was very clear) that she was pregnant? or as a dancer how would you react?

08-04-2006, 11:50 PM	#10 (permalink)
WocusWoman N8tiffUmatillaMAMA Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Interior Alaska Posts: 2,709	I can't believe there are not more responses to this thread, I guess people a scared, or wary about having an opinion. I've been involved as a committee member, contestant and a judge over the years for a handful of events, where there were rules, and obligations, when representing a tribe or native entity. If this particular tribe, group of people do not have clear written rules for their representative, that is on them. Personally; this young lady is only being asked to be a JR. headlady, which could be another argument in itself nowadays. I would be more concerned with being liable, if she were to go into labor early, due to the job she is being asked to take on. That's all... WW

08-08-2006, 01:09 PM	#13 (permalink)
jinx Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14	thanks again to all that have replied . this thread was started as a (what if you were ever at a powwow and this happened kinda thing.) you know how you are sitting around and something like that pops into a conversation. ive never seen this kinda thing take place myself, but heck sometimes you never know guess we all could be somewhere and it pop up. so , lets hear some more on how you would handle it if it did. thats why i typed in regardless of tribal affiliation , cause we all know that each tribe is different on pregnant ladies being in the circle or not. this thread is aimed more at young ladies holding the jr. head lady positions or even being crowned princess and becoming pregnant. all opinions are welcome!

11-21-2006, 11:41 PM	#14 (permalink)
SuzzeQ4 Teen Dancer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: south eastern Ontario Posts: 463