Head Veteran?

WhoMe · 12-09-2004, 12:01 PM

What exactly is a Head Vet?

What are his/her duties?

Where and when did this head staff position begin?

Is this position an evolution of an older position in some society (such as spoon carrier is now the head feast cook and whipman is now the arena director etc. etc)?

CHEROSAGE · 12-10-2004, 12:35 AM

MAYBE this position was once used somewhere to honor some honorable returning Veterans. Not sure about the time period this may have started.

**Ndnsoldierboy** · 12-10-2004, 01:54 PM

I have never heard of this "head" veteran thing. It must be something new. How does one determine a head veteran? By his years in service? The oldest? his Rank as either an officer or non-commisssioned officer? If he has been to war? not all vets served in combat. And what if the vet is a woman? Is that a factor as well?

Tom Iron Eagle · 12-10-2004, 03:23 PM

Use of the position Head Veteran is far from something new. Although it is not seen across all of Native America it has been around for sometime. In the most recent times it is mostly seen across the Eastern United States.

There are several reasons that go back pretty far. And it has many origins from developing out of the many Warrior Societies across Native America.

For an event people wanted to keep the traditions of having 4 Whipmen, or 4 Guards, or Warrios, or Society Members, etc., etc. take care of certain responsibilities during a dance or other Native Event. But as many Warriors and Societies were dying out that was very hard to do and soon it came down to having just one person mainly responsible for some of those duties that would have gone to many Society Members.

Also, this was seen as really spreading after WWI when Native Americans saw themselves fighting for the land called America and not the White Man of America. Things were seen more on a Global Scale when WWI came about. WWII only increased this as we saw ourselves fighting pure Evil in the World against the Axiz powers.

Men returning from these Wars were seen as the imbodienment of the Warriors of times past and they were honored with an important position during a dance or other event.

In the past this position was to be only held by a Combat Veteran (regradless of rank) and in much of Native America that still holds true today. But this postion also needs one of great maturity both mentally and emotionally as well as a great deal of knowledge and wisdom. So you can see that just being a Combat Vet or just being an Elder does not "fit the bill."

Duties can range depending on the "so called protocal" or Tribal Concepts, and many, many other factors.

WhoMe · 12-10-2004, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Iron Eagle

Duties can range depending on the "so called protocal" or Tribal Concepts, and many, many other factors.

__

Tom,

I am not quite sure about the duties or necessity to have a head veteran on the head staff. This may be one reason why most powwows in the west don't include them.

I have seen them in Michigan and Indiana. I saw them in the grand entry and also pick up dropped feathers. I have even heard of one who tried to dictate protocol to the drums.

Is this pretty much all they do?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I am just wanting to learn.

**Wojapi4Me** · 12-10-2004, 04:01 PM

"Head Veteran" is new. It's not based on any of the older society offices. It's just another position that seems to have been added somewhere around the middle 1990s.

**Kiwehnzii** · 12-10-2004, 09:07 PM

It's fairly new. About the late sixties and early seventies. This primarily seen around the Great Lakes area. I'm not too sure why this position was created, but I believe the head veteran position appears to be modeled after the whipman or arena director.
For awhile, the arena directors position was not there. It just appeared again in the early nineties. Ontario & Michigan anyways. Some folks thought that the arena directors only job was to chase dogs out of the arena. LOL. Some arena directors still think that way.

Well, enough outta me.

Tom Iron Eagle · 12-11-2004, 02:11 PM

WhoMe you have it pretty much on the head for todays powwows. And it is something that is seen more in the East. Duties (if any as you have suggested) are usually very simple and most would agree that you don't need both a Head Vet and Arena Director as the duties can be done by one position. And so you are correct in that some committees do not see the need for both positions in the Head Staff.

But I stress again that it is not new - take this from somebody that was around long before the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s, 1960s and was here before the 1950s and I will stop there as this paragraph will be way to long if I continue (no offense to any Elders).

It does harken (notice key word here is "harken") back to various Warrior Societies and it was a great honor to those that were returning from both WWI and WWII. I have known of many that have served this duty long before these most recent times.

I have had the distinct privilege of knowing some that served as Head Veterans for events during WWII in the mid 1940s. And yes some were members of the various Societies in the late 19th and very early 20th Century. Remember that a person that is 65 in 1944 was born in 1879.

It is thought to be new because it was not the norm a long time ago and is not the norm today and it is only used in certain parts of Native America today.

**kiyaanii mom** · 12-13-2004, 03:40 PM

This last year, I think I heard a "Head Veteran" announced as Head Staff. That was a first for me, and I can't remember where it was.

Maybe it is kinda being resurrected, as someone who is responsible for picking up Eagle Feathers. I say that cuz, I've always been taught that veterans were the only people who could pick up an eagle feather. Just a thought....

LOL at chasing dogs out of the arena.... They should have called him the head dog chaser. LOL

**Wojapi4Me** · 12-14-2004, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Iron Eagle

WhoMe you have it pretty much on the head for todays powwows. And it is something that is seen more in the East. Duties (if any as you have suggested) are usually very simple and most would agree that you don't need both a Head Vet and Arena Director as the duties can be done by one position. And so you are correct in that some committees do not see the need for both positions in the Head Staff.

But I stress again that it is not new - take this from somebody that was around long before the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s, 1960s and was here before the 1950s and I will stop there as this paragraph will be way to long if I continue (no offense to any Elders).

It does harken (notice key word here is "harken") back to various Warrior Societies and it was a great honor to those that were returning from both WWI and WWII. I have known of many that have served this duty long before these most recent times.

I have had the distinct privilege of knowing some that served as Head Veterans for events during WWII in the mid 1940s. And yes some were members of the various Societies in the late 19th and very early 20th Century. Remember that a person that is 65 in 1944 was born in 1879.

It is thought to be new because it was not the norm a long time ago and is not the norm today and it is only used in certain parts of Native America today.

Were these men referred to as Head Veterans or just a group of veterans being honored for their war deeds? There is a huge difference. I just find this hard to buy...no one ever heard of this Head Vet stuff until recently. If dances want to have this as a part of their head staff...no problem with that, but don't try to make it out to be something it isn't. And by the way, vets are not the only ones who can pick up feathers.

**kiyaanii mom** · 12-14-2004, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singerdad

And by the way, vets are not the only ones who can pick up feathers.

Who else can?

**Wojapi4Me** · 12-14-2004, 03:47 PM

I won't go into an exhaustive explanation here, but every Indian community has elders who have this right who have never served a day in the military. In many tribes, these men are not allowed to do things the military might require them to do.

12-09-2004, 12:01 PM	#1 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,442	Head Veteran? What exactly is a Head Vet? What are his/her duties? Where and when did this head staff position begin? Is this position an evolution of an older position in some society (such as spoon carrier is now the head feast cook and whipman is now the arena director etc. etc)? __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe Last edited by WhoMe; 12-10-2004 at 03:39 PM.

12-10-2004, 12:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,318	MAYBE this position was once used somewhere to honor some honorable returning Veterans. Not sure about the time period this may have started. __________________ BOB

12-10-2004, 01:54 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ndnsoldierboy PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Home of the Brave Posts: 11,194	I have never heard of this "head" veteran thing. It must be something new. How does one determine a head veteran? By his years in service? The oldest? his Rank as either an officer or non-commisssioned officer? If he has been to war? not all vets served in combat. And what if the vet is a woman? Is that a factor as well? __________________ R.I.P. my Bros from the 1st MAR DIV, 3rd MAR DIV, 25th I.D., 10th MTN DIV, who gave their lives in the Cold War, Marines we lost in Korea during Team Spirit '89 & Okinawa '89- bodies never recovered, Panama, 1st Gulf War, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq... Semper Fi... "Climb To Glory" PVT. Byron W. Fouty & SGT. Alex Jimenez, SSG Tyler Pickett, SSG Marion Flint, SSG Daniel Lewis, SSG Anthony Lagman, SGT Michael Esposito R.I.P. Bros....

12-10-2004, 03:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tom Iron Eagle Teen Dancer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 370	Head Veteran Use of the position Head Veteran is far from something new. Although it is not seen across all of Native America it has been around for sometime. In the most recent times it is mostly seen across the Eastern United States. There are several reasons that go back pretty far. And it has many origins from developing out of the many Warrior Societies across Native America. For an event people wanted to keep the traditions of having 4 Whipmen, or 4 Guards, or Warrios, or Society Members, etc., etc. take care of certain responsibilities during a dance or other Native Event. But as many Warriors and Societies were dying out that was very hard to do and soon it came down to having just one person mainly responsible for some of those duties that would have gone to many Society Members. Also, this was seen as really spreading after WWI when Native Americans saw themselves fighting for the land called America and not the White Man of America. Things were seen more on a Global Scale when WWI came about. WWII only increased this as we saw ourselves fighting pure Evil in the World against the Axiz powers. Men returning from these Wars were seen as the imbodienment of the Warriors of times past and they were honored with an important position during a dance or other event. In the past this position was to be only held by a Combat Veteran (regradless of rank) and in much of Native America that still holds true today. But this postion also needs one of great maturity both mentally and emotionally as well as a great deal of knowledge and wisdom. So you can see that just being a Combat Vet or just being an Elder does not "fit the bill." Duties can range depending on the "so called protocal" or Tribal Concepts, and many, many other factors.

12-10-2004, 04:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,495	"Head Veteran" is new. It's not based on any of the older society offices. It's just another position that seems to have been added somewhere around the middle 1990s. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

12-10-2004, 09:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,858	It's fairly new. About the late sixties and early seventies. This primarily seen around the Great Lakes area. I'm not too sure why this position was created, but I believe the head veteran position appears to be modeled after the whipman or arena director. For awhile, the arena directors position was not there. It just appeared again in the early nineties. Ontario & Michigan anyways. Some folks thought that the arena directors only job was to chase dogs out of the arena. LOL. Some arena directors still think that way. Well, enough outta me.

12-11-2004, 02:11 PM	#8 (permalink)
Tom Iron Eagle Teen Dancer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 370	Head Vet Far From New. WhoMe you have it pretty much on the head for todays powwows. And it is something that is seen more in the East. Duties (if any as you have suggested) are usually very simple and most would agree that you don't need both a Head Vet and Arena Director as the duties can be done by one position. And so you are correct in that some committees do not see the need for both positions in the Head Staff. But I stress again that it is not new - take this from somebody that was around long before the 1990s, 1980s, 1970s, 1960s and was here before the 1950s and I will stop there as this paragraph will be way to long if I continue (no offense to any Elders). It does harken (notice key word here is "harken") back to various Warrior Societies and it was a great honor to those that were returning from both WWI and WWII. I have known of many that have served this duty long before these most recent times. I have had the distinct privilege of knowing some that served as Head Veterans for events during WWII in the mid 1940s. And yes some were members of the various Societies in the late 19th and very early 20th Century. Remember that a person that is 65 in 1944 was born in 1879. It is thought to be new because it was not the norm a long time ago and is not the norm today and it is only used in certain parts of Native America today. Last edited by Tom Iron Eagle; 12-11-2004 at 02:20 PM.

12-13-2004, 03:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
kiyaanii mom We'll See.... Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 4 corners area Posts: 1,610	This last year, I think I heard a "Head Veteran" announced as Head Staff. That was a first for me, and I can't remember where it was. Maybe it is kinda being resurrected, as someone who is responsible for picking up Eagle Feathers. I say that cuz, I've always been taught that veterans were the only people who could pick up an eagle feather. Just a thought.... LOL at chasing dogs out of the arena.... They should have called him the head dog chaser. LOL

12-14-2004, 03:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
Wojapi4Me Kili! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Tha Rez Posts: 1,495	I won't go into an exhaustive explanation here, but every Indian community has elders who have this right who have never served a day in the military. In many tribes, these men are not allowed to do things the military might require them to do. __________________ If pro is the opposite of con, then wouldn't progress be the opposite of...lol

12-15-2004, 10:42 AM	#13 (permalink)
Tom Iron Eagle Teen Dancer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 370 <